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Is it embarrassing? Maybe it’s a shortage of market incentives or maybe it’s just a really difficult problem? We shouldn’t assume we’ll have innovative solution

by rapind 5y ago

Is it embarrassing? Maybe it’s a shortage of market incentives or maybe it’s just a really difficult problem? We shouldn’t assume we’ll have innovative solutions for everything. I think a healthier futuristic perspective would be one that considers only some percentage of problems will be solved through innovation, at least in the near term. That way we accept we still could be screwed and need to work harder!

jandrese 5y ago
It's embarrassing that we are still using fossil fuels without any plan to deal with the pollution it causes. It isn't like people weren't aware of the problem either, I remember talks in the 80s about the Greenhouse Effect and how we needed to act quickly before the problem got out of hand. We're already well past the point where if we just stopped emitting we will be ok. We now need carbon capture as part of the solution and thus far nothing has panned out. Nor is there much political will to actually push for solutions. They're just seen as pure cost that will make your country less competitive so nobody wants to be the only country who goes for "truth" in this prisoner's dilemma.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  The big problems in the 80s were acid rain and recycling. We kind of nailed those. Global warming wasn't as important as a nuclear winter. Embarrassing to use fossil fuels? In front of who? some future self who judges you? Wait till you see next decades' problems.
  - beebeepka 5y ago
    Recycling has been nailed? I might have missed a few major breakthroughs because the plastixa problem seems anything but fixed to me
  - jandrese 5y ago
    We fixed acid rain by exporting it to China. Recycling is kind of a mess at the moment due to China stopping pretending that they were recycling plastic. We did mostly fix the Ozone hole though, albeit it is still an ongoing process.
  - Qwertious 5y ago
    Recycling plastic is a red herring popularized by the fossil fuel industry. Up until recently most of its actual success came from a combination of: 1) China's heavy exports meaning that transporting bulk goods TO China was practically free, because the ships were making the trip while empty anyway 2) China's manufacturing industry growing so fast that they simply, literally could not get enough plastic 3) Dirt-cheap labor costs in some parts of China enabling labor-intensive recycling on razor thin margins 4) Corruption and a disregard for the true costs of environmental damage making waste dumping look far more profitable than it actually was. AIUI these have disappeared recently, due to China's economic growth, and shift from exports to selling domestically, and their environmental damage starting to seriously catch up with them, all of which resulted in them no longer accepting plastic.
    - petre 5y ago
      A waste management scientist in India has a royality free patent of using plastic in asphalt. This is a good way to recycle plastic, but one could pave only so many roads. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_road
    - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
      China still accepts plastic for recycling. As you note they make a lot of stuff and so need it and have net exports so lots of ships are going there anyway. What they banned was people pretending to send recyclable plastic but really just sending them any old junk. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_National_Sword https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_National_Sword Text from their official notification: > Objective and rationale, including the nature of urgent problems where applicable: The reasons for urgent measure: According to the Special Actions of Strengthening the Supervision and Strictly Striking of Illegal "Foreign Garbage" by the General Administration of Customs of China, Ministry of Environmental Protection of China, Ministry of Public Security of China and General Administration of Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine of China, as well as the Special Actions of Striking of the Illegal Actions of Imported Solid Waste Processing and Utilizing Sectors by Ministry of Environmental Protection of China, we found that large amounts of dirty wastes or even hazardous wastes are mixed in the solid waste that can be used as raw materials. This polluted China's environment seriously. To protect China's environmental interests and people's health, we urgently adjust the imported solid wastes list, and forbid the import of solid wastes that are highly polluted. Protection of human health or safety; Protection of animal or plant life or health; Protection of the environment.

by rapind 5y ago

jandrese 5y ago

It's embarrassing that we are still using fossil fuels without any plan to deal with the pollution it causes. It isn't like people weren't aware of the problem either, I remember talks in the 80s about the Greenhouse Effect and how we needed to act quickly before the problem got out of hand. We're already well past the point where if we just stopped emitting we will be ok. We now need carbon capture as part of the solution and thus far nothing has panned out. Nor is there much political will to actually push for solutions. They're just seen as pure cost that will make your country less competitive so nobody wants to be the only country who goes for "truth" in this prisoner's dilemma.

ipaddr 5y ago
The big problems in the 80s were acid rain and recycling. We kind of nailed those. Global warming wasn't as important as a nuclear winter. Embarrassing to use fossil fuels? In front of who? some future self who judges you? Wait till you see next decades' problems.
- beebeepka 5y ago
  Recycling has been nailed? I might have missed a few major breakthroughs because the plastixa problem seems anything but fixed to me
- jandrese 5y ago
  We fixed acid rain by exporting it to China. Recycling is kind of a mess at the moment due to China stopping pretending that they were recycling plastic. We did mostly fix the Ozone hole though, albeit it is still an ongoing process.
- Qwertious 5y ago
  Recycling plastic is a red herring popularized by the fossil fuel industry. Up until recently most of its actual success came from a combination of: 1) China's heavy exports meaning that transporting bulk goods TO China was practically free, because the ships were making the trip while empty anyway 2) China's manufacturing industry growing so fast that they simply, literally could not get enough plastic 3) Dirt-cheap labor costs in some parts of China enabling labor-intensive recycling on razor thin margins 4) Corruption and a disregard for the true costs of environmental damage making waste dumping look far more profitable than it actually was. AIUI these have disappeared recently, due to China's economic growth, and shift from exports to selling domestically, and their environmental damage starting to seriously catch up with them, all of which resulted in them no longer accepting plastic.
  - petre 5y ago
    A waste management scientist in India has a royality free patent of using plastic in asphalt. This is a good way to recycle plastic, but one could pave only so many roads. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_road
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    China still accepts plastic for recycling. As you note they make a lot of stuff and so need it and have net exports so lots of ships are going there anyway. What they banned was people pretending to send recyclable plastic but really just sending them any old junk. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_National_Sword https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_National_Sword Text from their official notification: > Objective and rationale, including the nature of urgent problems where applicable: The reasons for urgent measure: According to the Special Actions of Strengthening the Supervision and Strictly Striking of Illegal "Foreign Garbage" by the General Administration of Customs of China, Ministry of Environmental Protection of China, Ministry of Public Security of China and General Administration of Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine of China, as well as the Special Actions of Striking of the Illegal Actions of Imported Solid Waste Processing and Utilizing Sectors by Ministry of Environmental Protection of China, we found that large amounts of dirty wastes or even hazardous wastes are mixed in the solid waste that can be used as raw materials. This polluted China's environment seriously. To protect China's environmental interests and people's health, we urgently adjust the imported solid wastes list, and forbid the import of solid wastes that are highly polluted. Protection of human health or safety; Protection of animal or plant life or health; Protection of the environment.