4 ms·

>Radio waves obviously can penetrate much farther and get to the areas that you would want to be concerned about. Is this correct? I'm not much more than a lay

>Radio waves obviously can penetrate much farther and get to the areas that you would want to be concerned about. Is this correct? I'm not much more than a layman in physics, but I thought RF, being below the visible spectrum, is non-ionizing thus unable to cause any cell damage. Edit: Besides from microwaves or similar oscillating fields.

ampdepolymerase 5y ago
Anything can cause damage if it is intense enough (intensity is a separate quantity from photon energy). You do not want to put your hand into a microwave oven. But a cellphone's level of radiant intensity is absolutely harmless.
netr0ute 5y ago
Being non-ionizing is definitely a perk of regular radio, but it doesn't necessarily mean it can't create cell damage.
- philipswood 5y ago
  I find it hard to imagine a realistic mechanism for HOW non-ionizing radiation at low energies would be causing cellular damage.
  - netr0ute 5y ago
    There could be a case if the magnetic fields created interfered with some molecular function, but I'm not up to date on that.
  - saltcured 5y ago
    I am no expert here, but there seem to be many pathways for damage other than ionization. The mention of calcium channels etc. shows a concern for unexpected triggering of normal cellular functions rather than direct molecular damage. Remember that cells are stateful biochemical machines, so it's not just instantaneous damage from radiation as the only possible pathway. If the authors are right and the cells are in some way receptive to the modulated emissions, some bio-structures might be like antenna and demodulators, stimulating the cells at many lower frequency scales. An analogy here could be a crystal radio which demodulates AM broadcasts into an audible frequency, or the way old GSM call negotiation patterns would induce an audible pattern in computer speakers. This summary of occupational safety concerns for mechanical vibration covers a topic I found interesting when it first appeared as a news item years ago: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6415671/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6415671/ I know you might say this is vastly different scales of energy between whole body vibration from an industrial job and emissions from a battery-powered cell phone. My observation is merely that there are many ways that we might naively think that our bodies are robust, while with repeated exposure to seemingly harmless conditions, subtle damage accumulates.
topspin 5y ago
> Is this correct? Yes. Otherwise a microwave oven would just sear stuff. Radio frequency penetrates meat. It doesn't do it well, because meat has high impedance, but it does penetrate. Disclaimer: I don't believe cell phones are causing cancer; there just isn't enough power involved. It's all bunk.
wizzwizz4 5y ago
It's non-ionising, thus unable to liberate electrons from their atoms. It can still do stuff like heat water up (though low-power signals have correspondingly low heating power) or communicate with electronics (e.g. firmware update your smartwatch to short the battery), though, so it's not unconditionally safe. I'm sceptical that low levels of non-ionising radiation can do damage, but it's not physically impossible. (I know of no biological mechanism by which it could cause harm, but I'm no biologist.)
jellicle 5y ago
Two possible concerns with "radiation": a) individual rays/particles have enough energy to knock electrons off ("ionizing radiation"). This is dependent on wavelength/frequency, not the amount of radiation, so even small amounts can be possibly problematic. b) quantity of radiation brings enough energy to heat things up, cause damage through heating. Cell phones have neither problem.

ampdepolymerase 5y ago

Anything can cause damage if it is intense enough (intensity is a separate quantity from photon energy). You do not want to put your hand into a microwave oven. But a cellphone's level of radiant intensity is absolutely harmless.

netr0ute 5y ago

Being non-ionizing is definitely a perk of regular radio, but it doesn't necessarily mean it can't create cell damage.

philipswood 5y ago
I find it hard to imagine a realistic mechanism for HOW non-ionizing radiation at low energies would be causing cellular damage.
- netr0ute 5y ago
  There could be a case if the magnetic fields created interfered with some molecular function, but I'm not up to date on that.
- saltcured 5y ago
  I am no expert here, but there seem to be many pathways for damage other than ionization. The mention of calcium channels etc. shows a concern for unexpected triggering of normal cellular functions rather than direct molecular damage. Remember that cells are stateful biochemical machines, so it's not just instantaneous damage from radiation as the only possible pathway. If the authors are right and the cells are in some way receptive to the modulated emissions, some bio-structures might be like antenna and demodulators, stimulating the cells at many lower frequency scales. An analogy here could be a crystal radio which demodulates AM broadcasts into an audible frequency, or the way old GSM call negotiation patterns would induce an audible pattern in computer speakers. This summary of occupational safety concerns for mechanical vibration covers a topic I found interesting when it first appeared as a news item years ago: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6415671/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6415671/ I know you might say this is vastly different scales of energy between whole body vibration from an industrial job and emissions from a battery-powered cell phone. My observation is merely that there are many ways that we might naively think that our bodies are robust, while with repeated exposure to seemingly harmless conditions, subtle damage accumulates.

topspin 5y ago

> Is this correct? Yes. Otherwise a microwave oven would just sear stuff. Radio frequency penetrates meat. It doesn't do it well, because meat has high impedance, but it does penetrate. Disclaimer: I don't believe cell phones are causing cancer; there just isn't enough power involved. It's all bunk.

wizzwizz4 5y ago

It's non-ionising, thus unable to liberate electrons from their atoms. It can still do stuff like heat water up (though low-power signals have correspondingly low heating power) or communicate with electronics (e.g. firmware update your smartwatch to short the battery), though, so it's not unconditionally safe. I'm sceptical that low levels of non-ionising radiation can do damage, but it's not physically impossible. (I know of no biological mechanism by which it could cause harm, but I'm no biologist.)

jellicle 5y ago

Two possible concerns with "radiation": a) individual rays/particles have enough energy to knock electrons off ("ionizing radiation"). This is dependent on wavelength/frequency, not the amount of radiation, so even small amounts can be possibly problematic. b) quantity of radiation brings enough energy to heat things up, cause damage through heating. Cell phones have neither problem.