4 ms·

Your honor, can the prosecution please be compelled to demonstrate where the bitcoin physically exists? Oh on this computer? Well, the key is memorized and th

Your honor, can the prosecution please be compelled to demonstrate where the bitcoin physically exists? Oh on this computer? Well, the key is memorized and there are several copies saved all over the world in cloud computers. Can the prosecution show the court, physically, where in the computer the asset exists?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mrverify 5y ago
"This is a fairly recent “announcement” and many people are upset about the Reserve Bank making up seemingly hostile and uninformed rules regarding something that has no notion of borders and is practically impossible for the regulators to control in terms of owning and transferring. Something that arguably does not even exist in any one location..." So now, a memorized key or password means you are transferring "right to capital" and therefore cannot leave South Africa? I'm fairly certain that Apartheid was thoroughly shot down back in the 80s.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  The law isn't new and expecting cryptocurrency to get a free pass. The guidelines for how to follow those laws make sense. If there is anything to be upset with, it is the law itself which is something that South Africans have had a long time to get changed.
  - DistantCl3ric 5y ago
    It isn't clear if its illegal to use ones Single Discretionary allowance (SDA) (1m ZAR per annum) or applying for and using a Foreign investment allowance (FIA) (further 10m ZAR per annum) for crypto. If exchange control was applied fairly as was the interpretation up until recently, then staying below those amounts in ZAR terms would be fine. However, that may not be the case any more.
  - BTCarel 5y ago
    We have been trying to get it changed for DECADES, there has been numerous court cases.
jahewson 5y ago
Where does a dollar exist?
quonn 5y ago
How is that different from an asset in a bank account? What matters who controls the access to it.
- rawtxapp 5y ago
  They can compel the bank directly, no one can "force" the blockchain do to anything that's not programmed to do.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > can compel the bank directly, no one can "force" the blockchain do to anything that's not programmed to do This doesn't work with banks outside a court's jurisdiction. That doesn't stop enforcement. We already have tools that informally designate tainted versus untainted wallets. Incorporating that into the law wouldn't be that difficult nor, I suspect, controversial.
    - DistantCl3ric 5y ago
      This is the issue though. Reserve banks doesnt want money flowing out of SA to any organisation it cannot compel. Enter the exchange control laws from the 60s that still limit capital flow out of SA. 1m ZAR per annum per person(~70k USD) this includes things like Netflix subscriptions, Amazon orders etc.
    - da_big_ghey 5y ago
      but did stop enforcement... swiss banks were for many years never disclosing and it had stopped enforcement in many case... this only has been changed in recent years... birkenfeld disclosures led to no more american clients out of american regulation, swiss signing FACTA, similar thing.
      - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
        > did stop enforcement... swiss banks were for many years never disclosing As you say, there was a delay, not a stoppage.
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> can the prosecution please be compelled to demonstrate where the bitcoin physically exists? Is the claim that courts the world over would be stymied by the supposedly novel concept of an intangible asset?
- mrverify 5y ago
  The claim is that location of the asset is literally impossible to prove short of having the only copy of the key on a drive in possession of the prosecution. An example crypto asset, in this case, perhaps one that is less than the threshold for this law, but used in court can be easily used to show that the asset either exists in multiple places at once, or nowhere at all, and can even exist, ephemerally, in the mind of someone or multiple people.
  - mrverify 5y ago
    you could probably use CRISPR to literally trans-code it into base pairs and inject it into your genome, but the cost of synthesizing the oligonucleotide might be more than the wallet holds in some cases.
nly 5y ago
In the UK you can face prison time for not disclosing passwords if compelled to by the authorities. A cryptocurrency key isn't that different.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

mrverify 5y ago

"This is a fairly recent “announcement” and many people are upset about the Reserve Bank making up seemingly hostile and uninformed rules regarding something that has no notion of borders and is practically impossible for the regulators to control in terms of owning and transferring. Something that arguably does not even exist in any one location..." So now, a memorized key or password means you are transferring "right to capital" and therefore cannot leave South Africa? I'm fairly certain that Apartheid was thoroughly shot down back in the 80s.

shkkmo 5y ago
The law isn't new and expecting cryptocurrency to get a free pass. The guidelines for how to follow those laws make sense. If there is anything to be upset with, it is the law itself which is something that South Africans have had a long time to get changed.
- DistantCl3ric 5y ago
  It isn't clear if its illegal to use ones Single Discretionary allowance (SDA) (1m ZAR per annum) or applying for and using a Foreign investment allowance (FIA) (further 10m ZAR per annum) for crypto. If exchange control was applied fairly as was the interpretation up until recently, then staying below those amounts in ZAR terms would be fine. However, that may not be the case any more.
- BTCarel 5y ago
  We have been trying to get it changed for DECADES, there has been numerous court cases.

jahewson 5y ago

Where does a dollar exist?

quonn 5y ago

How is that different from an asset in a bank account? What matters who controls the access to it.

rawtxapp 5y ago
They can compel the bank directly, no one can "force" the blockchain do to anything that's not programmed to do.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > can compel the bank directly, no one can "force" the blockchain do to anything that's not programmed to do This doesn't work with banks outside a court's jurisdiction. That doesn't stop enforcement. We already have tools that informally designate tainted versus untainted wallets. Incorporating that into the law wouldn't be that difficult nor, I suspect, controversial.
  - DistantCl3ric 5y ago
    This is the issue though. Reserve banks doesnt want money flowing out of SA to any organisation it cannot compel. Enter the exchange control laws from the 60s that still limit capital flow out of SA. 1m ZAR per annum per person(~70k USD) this includes things like Netflix subscriptions, Amazon orders etc.
  - da_big_ghey 5y ago
    but did stop enforcement... swiss banks were for many years never disclosing and it had stopped enforcement in many case... this only has been changed in recent years... birkenfeld disclosures led to no more american clients out of american regulation, swiss signing FACTA, similar thing.
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > did stop enforcement... swiss banks were for many years never disclosing As you say, there was a delay, not a stoppage.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> can the prosecution please be compelled to demonstrate where the bitcoin physically exists? Is the claim that courts the world over would be stymied by the supposedly novel concept of an intangible asset?

mrverify 5y ago
The claim is that location of the asset is literally impossible to prove short of having the only copy of the key on a drive in possession of the prosecution. An example crypto asset, in this case, perhaps one that is less than the threshold for this law, but used in court can be easily used to show that the asset either exists in multiple places at once, or nowhere at all, and can even exist, ephemerally, in the mind of someone or multiple people.
- mrverify 5y ago
  you could probably use CRISPR to literally trans-code it into base pairs and inject it into your genome, but the cost of synthesizing the oligonucleotide might be more than the wallet holds in some cases.

nly 5y ago

In the UK you can face prison time for not disclosing passwords if compelled to by the authorities. A cryptocurrency key isn't that different.