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> This kind of comments resembles the thinking process of a person with "product manager" position in a small/medium size company. Deep down (consciously or sub

> This kind of comments resembles the thinking process of a person with "product manager" position in a small/medium size company. Deep down (consciously or subconsciously) they don't really respect or see the value of the individual developer, but they see the team more like a bunch of horses going around the mill. They optimize for "the product" and throw around sophists-like pseudo-philosophical thoughts that appeal to like-minded individuals or to their bosses. There’s some truth to that somewhat cynical description. :) But how do you organize software development without falling into that hole? A product has to make sense as a whole, and the only/easiest way to accomplish that is to make a single person responsible for its high-level specification. From there the negative cultural fallout you describe is to some extent inevitable (although you can and should counteract it of course).

throwawayswede 5y ago
I think product manager is a very important role. But I'm yet to see a product manager that respects the craft/skill or even spends any effort to understand what's entailed. Most are shoot-an-email-assign-on-jira-and-call-it-a-day type. Nothing more depressing than getting a condescending "good job!" from an oily haired zoro for making a menu bigger and not getting any recognition for lowering server costs 50%. This is not an exaggeration, there are many many stories like that or even worse. I've heard developers described as plumbers even from people who work in highly respected and big companies. There's nothing wrong with plumbers, but it's just to show how they think about what we do.
- bjornsing 5y ago
  Sure, I’ve seen a lot of it first hand, both as a developer and in other roles. It’s sad really as it feels very destructive / counterproductive. But it seems hard to get around. Couldn’t help noticing your username implies you’re Swedish. I am too. Sometimes I get a feeling there is something about Swedish work culture that makes this worse. We have a long tradition of workers unions and collective bargaining, and everyone being replaceable is sort of taken for granted (or even encouraged). Any thoughts on this or how to get around it?

throwawayswede 5y ago

I think product manager is a very important role. But I'm yet to see a product manager that respects the craft/skill or even spends any effort to understand what's entailed. Most are shoot-an-email-assign-on-jira-and-call-it-a-day type. Nothing more depressing than getting a condescending "good job!" from an oily haired zoro for making a menu bigger and not getting any recognition for lowering server costs 50%. This is not an exaggeration, there are many many stories like that or even worse. I've heard developers described as plumbers even from people who work in highly respected and big companies. There's nothing wrong with plumbers, but it's just to show how they think about what we do.

bjornsing 5y ago
Sure, I’ve seen a lot of it first hand, both as a developer and in other roles. It’s sad really as it feels very destructive / counterproductive. But it seems hard to get around. Couldn’t help noticing your username implies you’re Swedish. I am too. Sometimes I get a feeling there is something about Swedish work culture that makes this worse. We have a long tradition of workers unions and collective bargaining, and everyone being replaceable is sort of taken for granted (or even encouraged). Any thoughts on this or how to get around it?