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Yeah, especially on HN there's lots of whataboutism. As you can see from other responses you got, a lot of people get really defensive for China and are very ea

by vbtemp 5y ago

Yeah, especially on HN there's lots of whataboutism. As you can see from other responses you got, a lot of people get really defensive for China and are very eager to carry water for them - for apparently no reason. For them, the US has to be the worst offender, and if some other nation does equal or worse - they need to jump in as keyboard commandos to go to bat to make sure it's clear the US is public enemy #1. It was kind of true in 2003, of course, but the world has changed so much and their talking points haven't.

tablespoon 5y ago
> Yeah, especially on HN there's lots of whataboutism. As you can see from other responses you got, a lot of people get really defensive for China and are very eager to carry water for them - for apparently no reason. I was arguing with someone about a fringe website the other day, and I think I finally understand the thought process a lot of these people have. I think many are people who are strongly and habitually opposed to something (in this case, US injustices) have that opposition warp their perception of other things (especially things "opposed" to the US). Sometimes that means they see discussion of other injustices carried out by US adversaries as a distraction to be fought. Other times, that means denying and defending against accusations of injustice against a US opponent. In extreme cases, it means starting to explicitly support those opponents, even through they're arguably worse on almost every value axis these people started with. tl;dr: anti-imperialists who oppose the US imperialism can sometimes become defenders of imperialism done by US adversaries. This is article that helped me realize this: https://newpol.org/against-the-grayzone-slanders/ https://newpol.org/against-the-grayzone-slanders/: > During the Vietnam War, opposition to the United States and support for national self-determination for the Vietnamese among young activists sometimes developed into support for the Vietnamese Communist Party and its leader. One often heard at the protest demonstrations, “Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh, the NLF is Going to Win.” While this drift from opposition to the U.S. government to support for the Vietnamese government was understandable as a gut reaction to the horrors of the U.S. war, it was also very problematic. Most people chanted this slogan naively, but some gradually became supporters of Ho Chi Minh, the Vietnamese Communist government, and of the Soviet Union that was backing it. Few in the movement pointed out that Ho and the Vietnamese Communists were Stalinists who had murdered their leftist competitors and strove to construct a Soviet-style state in Vietnam, which is eventually what happened.
- vbtemp 5y ago
  Yeah, exactly. The viet cong and NVA we're utterly sadistic and depraved. Just reading about the ways they would torment and torture not just enemies - but poor civilians - scars one for life. Complete and utter callousness toward human life -- all while the leaders of the communist party's children were kept safe. Should the US not have intervened to prop up RVN, disrupting millions of lives of young americans (and losing 50,000 of them), and killing hundreds of thousands (millions?) of others from carpet bombings, napalm, etc? No, and continuing escalation was criminal on the parts of Johnson, Nixon, and their henchmen. But somehow people need to take that into somehow supporting and idolizing the exact horrific, militant, violent, racist traits they claim they are against. At the end of the day, they just don't like the US (or use opposition to the US as a virtual signal) - it has nothing to do with opposing unethical things.

by vbtemp 5y ago

tablespoon 5y ago

> Yeah, especially on HN there's lots of whataboutism. As you can see from other responses you got, a lot of people get really defensive for China and are very eager to carry water for them - for apparently no reason. I was arguing with someone about a fringe website the other day, and I think I finally understand the thought process a lot of these people have. I think many are people who are strongly and habitually opposed to something (in this case, US injustices) have that opposition warp their perception of other things (especially things "opposed" to the US). Sometimes that means they see discussion of other injustices carried out by US adversaries as a distraction to be fought. Other times, that means denying and defending against accusations of injustice against a US opponent. In extreme cases, it means starting to explicitly support those opponents, even through they're arguably worse on almost every value axis these people started with. tl;dr: anti-imperialists who oppose the US imperialism can sometimes become defenders of imperialism done by US adversaries. This is article that helped me realize this: https://newpol.org/against-the-grayzone-slanders/ https://newpol.org/against-the-grayzone-slanders/: > During the Vietnam War, opposition to the United States and support for national self-determination for the Vietnamese among young activists sometimes developed into support for the Vietnamese Communist Party and its leader. One often heard at the protest demonstrations, “Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh, the NLF is Going to Win.” While this drift from opposition to the U.S. government to support for the Vietnamese government was understandable as a gut reaction to the horrors of the U.S. war, it was also very problematic. Most people chanted this slogan naively, but some gradually became supporters of Ho Chi Minh, the Vietnamese Communist government, and of the Soviet Union that was backing it. Few in the movement pointed out that Ho and the Vietnamese Communists were Stalinists who had murdered their leftist competitors and strove to construct a Soviet-style state in Vietnam, which is eventually what happened.

vbtemp 5y ago
Yeah, exactly. The viet cong and NVA we're utterly sadistic and depraved. Just reading about the ways they would torment and torture not just enemies - but poor civilians - scars one for life. Complete and utter callousness toward human life -- all while the leaders of the communist party's children were kept safe. Should the US not have intervened to prop up RVN, disrupting millions of lives of young americans (and losing 50,000 of them), and killing hundreds of thousands (millions?) of others from carpet bombings, napalm, etc? No, and continuing escalation was criminal on the parts of Johnson, Nixon, and their henchmen. But somehow people need to take that into somehow supporting and idolizing the exact horrific, militant, violent, racist traits they claim they are against. At the end of the day, they just don't like the US (or use opposition to the US as a virtual signal) - it has nothing to do with opposing unethical things.