7 ms·

Why is male and female terminology bad here? Are we disputing that men have penises and women have vaginas? That doesn’t imply that you can’t have a sex chang

Why is male and female terminology bad here? Are we disputing that men have penises and women have vaginas? That doesn’t imply that you can’t have a sex change. Do trans people not generally convert their genitalia to match the destination sex?

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MatthiasWandel 5y ago
Just because something is true doesn't make it something we are allowed to acknowledge as being so.
jfengel 5y ago
No, they don't. A few do, but the operation is expensive, painful, and not always satisfactory. Many will take hormones and some will have non-genital surgeries, but full gender confirmation surgery is for a minority. A great many, perhaps a majority, don't do anything to their bodies at all. They change their clothes, their pronouns, their hair, and their lifestyles, but have no surgery or medicines. They live in society as their gender, and anything that's seen only by the people they're intimate with are a subject for discussion between them. The result is that yes, there are a fair number of men with vaginas and women with penises. Which doesn't matter to you unless you're either their doctor or their lover, but it's important to recognize that it is in fact the case.
- CodeGlitch 5y ago
  > Which doesn't matter to you unless you're either their doctor or their lover, but it's important to recognize that it is in fact the case. So I guess you didn't hear what has happened at a Wi Spa [0] recently? If my daughter or wife want to use ladies-only changing rooms, it does matter to them that the other people are of the same sex. [0] https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/wi-spa-video/ https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/wi-spa-video/
  - anoncake 5y ago
    > So I guess you didn't hear what has happened at a Wi Spa [0] recently? A woman went to the women's changing room and some bigots freaked out?
    - CodeGlitch 5y ago
      Perhaps some of those so-called "bigots" are young girls who really shouldn't have and don't want a penis exposed to them? Clearly women and girls are the ones who should be deciding who they share a changing room with (generally not a person with male genitals) .
      - anoncake 5y ago
        It's a woman's changing room, not a whoever-you-like-seeing changing room. There is no reason (other than some sort of puritanism) to get freaked out about girls seeing penises. In this context, it's just a body part.
        CodeGlitch 5y ago
        > There is no reason (other than some sort of puritanism) to get freaked out about girls seeing penises. This is totally asinine. There are a many reasons why... With just a little thought I'm sure you can think of at least one.
        anoncake 5y ago
        If there was one, you'd have already told me what it is.
        smegcicle 5y ago
        The idea that only uncivilized societies allow for public nudity is an ignorant and self-perpetuating colonialist stereotype. Not wanting eg your wife to see a penis, especially a feminine woman's penis, is laughably insecure at best, and bigoted and hateful at worst. Similarly, not wanting your assumed daughter to see a penis is harmful to her (or potentially his) emotional growth, and should be considered borderline child abuse.
- goatxi 5y ago
  > The result is that yes, there are a fair number of men with vaginas and women with penises. Let's describe it as what it actually is though: women with vaginas presenting as men, and men with penises presenting as women. This doesn't really make them, respectively, men and women.
CJefferson 5y ago
I think the argument is, to understand this terminology, you have to reduce people to their sexual organs. This isn't a trans-related issue.
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MatthiasWandel 5y ago

Just because something is true doesn't make it something we are allowed to acknowledge as being so.

jfengel 5y ago

No, they don't. A few do, but the operation is expensive, painful, and not always satisfactory. Many will take hormones and some will have non-genital surgeries, but full gender confirmation surgery is for a minority. A great many, perhaps a majority, don't do anything to their bodies at all. They change their clothes, their pronouns, their hair, and their lifestyles, but have no surgery or medicines. They live in society as their gender, and anything that's seen only by the people they're intimate with are a subject for discussion between them. The result is that yes, there are a fair number of men with vaginas and women with penises. Which doesn't matter to you unless you're either their doctor or their lover, but it's important to recognize that it is in fact the case.

CodeGlitch 5y ago
> Which doesn't matter to you unless you're either their doctor or their lover, but it's important to recognize that it is in fact the case. So I guess you didn't hear what has happened at a Wi Spa [0] recently? If my daughter or wife want to use ladies-only changing rooms, it does matter to them that the other people are of the same sex. [0] https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/wi-spa-video/ https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/wi-spa-video/
- anoncake 5y ago
  > So I guess you didn't hear what has happened at a Wi Spa [0] recently? A woman went to the women's changing room and some bigots freaked out?
  - CodeGlitch 5y ago
    Perhaps some of those so-called "bigots" are young girls who really shouldn't have and don't want a penis exposed to them? Clearly women and girls are the ones who should be deciding who they share a changing room with (generally not a person with male genitals) .
    - anoncake 5y ago
      It's a woman's changing room, not a whoever-you-like-seeing changing room. There is no reason (other than some sort of puritanism) to get freaked out about girls seeing penises. In this context, it's just a body part.
      - CodeGlitch 5y ago
        > There is no reason (other than some sort of puritanism) to get freaked out about girls seeing penises. This is totally asinine. There are a many reasons why... With just a little thought I'm sure you can think of at least one.
        anoncake 5y ago
        If there was one, you'd have already told me what it is.
        smegcicle 5y ago
        The idea that only uncivilized societies allow for public nudity is an ignorant and self-perpetuating colonialist stereotype. Not wanting eg your wife to see a penis, especially a feminine woman's penis, is laughably insecure at best, and bigoted and hateful at worst. Similarly, not wanting your assumed daughter to see a penis is harmful to her (or potentially his) emotional growth, and should be considered borderline child abuse.
goatxi 5y ago
> The result is that yes, there are a fair number of men with vaginas and women with penises. Let's describe it as what it actually is though: women with vaginas presenting as men, and men with penises presenting as women. This doesn't really make them, respectively, men and women.

CJefferson 5y ago

I think the argument is, to understand this terminology, you have to reduce people to their sexual organs. This isn't a trans-related issue.

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