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EU fines German carmakers over alleged cartel activities

underscore_ku 5y ago
good
Tepix 5y ago
As a German, I'm ashamed of this behaviour. I'm in the market for a new electric car but thanks to these practices it's not going to be a Volkswagen or BMW.
jaclaz 5y ago
Thread with link to the official EU site: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27771303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27771303 Daimler got a 100% discount (and Volkswagen 45%) respectively for "being the first one to talk" and for "having collaborated", though surely according to existing Laws, it sounds to me strange/a bit too much, I mean it is not like the immunity that (correctly) covers whistleblowers.
- IfOnlyYouKnew 5y ago
  You want the company to Akt as a whistleblower, so that option must be more attractive than all others. The easiest way to get closer to that is to not fine then. In the US, (individual) whistleblowers can walk away with millions of $ as a reward. Even if they were part of the wrongdoing before. The 45% I have no idea about. Once you know somebody is doing something, how much is it worth for them to cooperate? But I’d trust the investigators to have a better idea on that than anybody.
  - jaclaz 5y ago
    Yes, I understand the general idea, I am perplexed on the specific amounts/percentages, or better if they are "appropriate". Without any discount (i.e. if the issue was discovered by an external investigation, without any self-reporting by Daimler or cooperation by VW) the 875 million Euro would have been roughly 727+(502/0.55=912)+373=2,012. The 2,012-875=1,137 million difference sounds like a lot of money in absolute terms. Maybe when the money involved represents so large amounts the percentages should be lowered or a "minimum fixed amount" established. And even if the Daimler (as whistleblowing company) might "deserve" the 100% discount (as possibly without their self-reporting the cartel could never be discovered) the VW collaboration "prize" is (IMHO) more up to debate, it should mean that the information from Daimler alone would have not been enough to prove that the cartel existed[1] (but then the 100% discount accorded to them would seem to much). Not to start any conspiracy theory, and of course completely invented and hypothetical, but case #1 (what seemingly happened): Daimler self-reports but does not provide enough to prove: 100% discount VW provides proofs: 45% discount BMW adds nothing: 0% discount vs. case #2 (hypothetical): Daimler self-reports and provides all needed proofs: 100% discount VW can add nothing as the case is already proved: 0% discount BMW adds nothing: 0% discount The difference between case #1 and case #2 is worth roughly 410 milions Euro. [1] from the EU site: >The reduction reflects the timing of the cooperation and the extent to which the evidence Volkswagen group provided helped the Commission to prove the existence of the cartel.
- deleted 5y ago
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posterboy 5y ago
> alleged > cartel bwahaha, these lobbyists are handying out their business-card-els at every single chance, the mobile industry is big up on the charter of the leading parties, and its literally a car-tel (whatever -tel means if bracketed this way, it certainly means no good). So the tax payer will have to bear the burden, because its a statelevel politically controlled bizness.

good

As a German, I'm ashamed of this behaviour. I'm in the market for a new electric car but thanks to these practices it's not going to be a Volkswagen or BMW.

jaclaz 5y ago

Thread with link to the official EU site: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27771303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27771303 Daimler got a 100% discount (and Volkswagen 45%) respectively for "being the first one to talk" and for "having collaborated", though surely according to existing Laws, it sounds to me strange/a bit too much, I mean it is not like the immunity that (correctly) covers whistleblowers.

IfOnlyYouKnew 5y ago
You want the company to Akt as a whistleblower, so that option must be more attractive than all others. The easiest way to get closer to that is to not fine then. In the US, (individual) whistleblowers can walk away with millions of $ as a reward. Even if they were part of the wrongdoing before. The 45% I have no idea about. Once you know somebody is doing something, how much is it worth for them to cooperate? But I’d trust the investigators to have a better idea on that than anybody.
- jaclaz 5y ago
  Yes, I understand the general idea, I am perplexed on the specific amounts/percentages, or better if they are "appropriate". Without any discount (i.e. if the issue was discovered by an external investigation, without any self-reporting by Daimler or cooperation by VW) the 875 million Euro would have been roughly 727+(502/0.55=912)+373=2,012. The 2,012-875=1,137 million difference sounds like a lot of money in absolute terms. Maybe when the money involved represents so large amounts the percentages should be lowered or a "minimum fixed amount" established. And even if the Daimler (as whistleblowing company) might "deserve" the 100% discount (as possibly without their self-reporting the cartel could never be discovered) the VW collaboration "prize" is (IMHO) more up to debate, it should mean that the information from Daimler alone would have not been enough to prove that the cartel existed[1] (but then the 100% discount accorded to them would seem to much). Not to start any conspiracy theory, and of course completely invented and hypothetical, but case #1 (what seemingly happened): Daimler self-reports but does not provide enough to prove: 100% discount VW provides proofs: 45% discount BMW adds nothing: 0% discount vs. case #2 (hypothetical): Daimler self-reports and provides all needed proofs: 100% discount VW can add nothing as the case is already proved: 0% discount BMW adds nothing: 0% discount The difference between case #1 and case #2 is worth roughly 410 milions Euro. [1] from the EU site: >The reduction reflects the timing of the cooperation and the extent to which the evidence Volkswagen group provided helped the Commission to prove the existence of the cartel.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

posterboy 5y ago

> alleged > cartel bwahaha, these lobbyists are handying out their business-card-els at every single chance, the mobile industry is big up on the charter of the leading parties, and its literally a car-tel (whatever -tel means if bracketed this way, it certainly means no good). So the tax payer will have to bear the burden, because its a statelevel politically controlled bizness.