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> the sport has become more "athletic" and "mechanics-driven" (terms I just made up) as opposed to "artistic" and "technical" I think football has made this tr

> the sport has become more "athletic" and "mechanics-driven" (terms I just made up) as opposed to "artistic" and "technical" I think football has made this transition a long time ago. I wouldn't argue exactly when but consider how extremely talented players with lots of showmanship rarely perform well at an elite level on guile and "artistry" alone. Ronaldinho comes to mind vs. the athleticism and discipline of CR7 and Messi's games respectively. Personally, I like the hypothesis that tactics are now so data-driven [1] it's catching defenders unaware more often than not, a prime situation for getting an own-goal counted in your account. I think "more intricate play in the final third" (Burton in the article) is a result of this. Max the xGs in your striker positioning [2]! I'm also certain fatigue plays a part here (so, similar to Thorsvedt in the article). Playing schedule of an elite athlete is already brutal but the pandemic shifting and compressing timetables definitely did not help. I'm inclined to think defenders react ever so slowly in this contest. In short: It's a weird time to be playing elite international football. [1] Can't be bothered to look up a proper link but Liverpool's PL-winning team was touted to be data-driven, with analysts informing Klopp's selection and strategies. [2] This is just my loose claim but someone with access to the games' data could verify this.

leto_ii 5y ago
Thanks for the detailed reply. I'm curious, in your assessment, is the game today nicer to watch than it was 20-30 years ago when there was more "artistry"? Is it possible that football clubs are optimizing for the wrong things? Would there be a way to change the game so that artistry is stimulated (assuming that's something people would like)?
- kthejoker2 5y ago
  The biggest change in football over the last 30 years is the "rising tides lift all boats" of globalization, which has produced a much higher caliber of player pool overall - more athletic, better trained, better coached at all levels, and - as you note - optimized by efficient markets. The 22nd best player on the pitch in 2021 would probably be in the top 8 in the same match in 1991, and the gap between #1 and #22 has significantly shrunk in relative terms. "Artistry" requires a domination of the discipline so you can then focus on the product without fear of failure to execute.
  - leto_ii 5y ago
    Funny, to my mind capitalism had destroyed much of the sport. But it's true I'm thinking from the perspective of somebody coming from a small country (Romania in my case). 20-30 years ago we used to have pretty good teams and players, but the entire sport was gutted once it was open to the international market. Romanian teams didn't have the funds to compete with Western clubs. Eventually all the good players and coaches left - nowadays Romanian football is played at the level of a second league in a powerful country. The best players get sold off quickly, the experience accumulated over the years has been lost, the national team is in disaray etc.
- skytreader 5y ago
  In my very personal and non-European opinion, most flicks and tricks are only great to watch on Youtube highlight reels :P. Haven't been watching for 20-30 years but even in my 4K TV/monitor, Neymar's showboating is not as impressive without the commentator pointing it out or in close-up replay. Imagine how field play footage from even 15 years ago would look like to a casual today. What's nice to watch even in bird's-eye wide-field view are great dribblers (like Messi) and great team tactics (if you know what to watch out for). > Is it possible that football clubs are optimizing for the wrong things? Man, tactical philosophy is another religous war to get into. Mourinho vs. Guardiola could be an ideological debate to rival our beloved tabs vs. spaces. If you're trying to get into this, I'd say find a team whose narrative you like and start with them. > Would there be a way to change the game so that artistry is stimulated I think this depends on team tactics. The tactic dictates the behavior of individual players. I haven't followed football as closely in the last two years but I think your best bet for teams like this is either Paris St-Germain or try to watch games in the South American leagues. After all it's the South American (Brazil, in particular) players who are well known for this. (As for PSG, they paid a king's ransom to get Neymar in their team, and Neymar loves to play like he's still in the streets of Brazil. So I assume they built a team and tactics that allows him to do what he loves.)
  - leto_ii 5y ago
    Again, thanks for the detailed reply. > most flicks and tricks are only great to watch on Youtube highlight reels :P Well, that makes sense - that's pretty much the level I'm at as a football fan. > great team tactics (if you know what to watch out for). Yeah, these are probably wasted on me at my current level of understanding. > an ideological debate to rival our beloved tabs vs. spaces. Is there a debate still going on? I thought it was settled - you just set a tab to be 4 spaces and you're done * laughs coyly *. > they built a team and tactics that allows him to do what he loves Interesting that somebody can be so much of a singular talent that they would shape a team around him. Does this happen often? Are such teams more frail in the long run if their star leaves?

leto_ii 5y ago

Thanks for the detailed reply. I'm curious, in your assessment, is the game today nicer to watch than it was 20-30 years ago when there was more "artistry"? Is it possible that football clubs are optimizing for the wrong things? Would there be a way to change the game so that artistry is stimulated (assuming that's something people would like)?

kthejoker2 5y ago
The biggest change in football over the last 30 years is the "rising tides lift all boats" of globalization, which has produced a much higher caliber of player pool overall - more athletic, better trained, better coached at all levels, and - as you note - optimized by efficient markets. The 22nd best player on the pitch in 2021 would probably be in the top 8 in the same match in 1991, and the gap between #1 and #22 has significantly shrunk in relative terms. "Artistry" requires a domination of the discipline so you can then focus on the product without fear of failure to execute.
- leto_ii 5y ago
  Funny, to my mind capitalism had destroyed much of the sport. But it's true I'm thinking from the perspective of somebody coming from a small country (Romania in my case). 20-30 years ago we used to have pretty good teams and players, but the entire sport was gutted once it was open to the international market. Romanian teams didn't have the funds to compete with Western clubs. Eventually all the good players and coaches left - nowadays Romanian football is played at the level of a second league in a powerful country. The best players get sold off quickly, the experience accumulated over the years has been lost, the national team is in disaray etc.
skytreader 5y ago
In my very personal and non-European opinion, most flicks and tricks are only great to watch on Youtube highlight reels :P. Haven't been watching for 20-30 years but even in my 4K TV/monitor, Neymar's showboating is not as impressive without the commentator pointing it out or in close-up replay. Imagine how field play footage from even 15 years ago would look like to a casual today. What's nice to watch even in bird's-eye wide-field view are great dribblers (like Messi) and great team tactics (if you know what to watch out for). > Is it possible that football clubs are optimizing for the wrong things? Man, tactical philosophy is another religous war to get into. Mourinho vs. Guardiola could be an ideological debate to rival our beloved tabs vs. spaces. If you're trying to get into this, I'd say find a team whose narrative you like and start with them. > Would there be a way to change the game so that artistry is stimulated I think this depends on team tactics. The tactic dictates the behavior of individual players. I haven't followed football as closely in the last two years but I think your best bet for teams like this is either Paris St-Germain or try to watch games in the South American leagues. After all it's the South American (Brazil, in particular) players who are well known for this. (As for PSG, they paid a king's ransom to get Neymar in their team, and Neymar loves to play like he's still in the streets of Brazil. So I assume they built a team and tactics that allows him to do what he loves.)
- leto_ii 5y ago
  Again, thanks for the detailed reply. > most flicks and tricks are only great to watch on Youtube highlight reels :P Well, that makes sense - that's pretty much the level I'm at as a football fan. > great team tactics (if you know what to watch out for). Yeah, these are probably wasted on me at my current level of understanding. > an ideological debate to rival our beloved tabs vs. spaces. Is there a debate still going on? I thought it was settled - you just set a tab to be 4 spaces and you're done * laughs coyly *. > they built a team and tactics that allows him to do what he loves Interesting that somebody can be so much of a singular talent that they would shape a team around him. Does this happen often? Are such teams more frail in the long run if their star leaves?