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“Lying flat is standing up, horizontally.” Gotta love the creative ways people will find to retrofit some artistic meanings to grow it into something stronger.

“Lying flat is standing up, horizontally.” Gotta love the creative ways people will find to retrofit some artistic meanings to grow it into something stronger. The people who wanted to just lay flat were not really trying to make a statement, but now it will inevitably be perceived as one. The whole article is a disservice to these folks, who'd be better left unknown.

rbanffy 5y ago
I think choosing not to participate in the “rat race” is a powerful statement. I write code for fun and, incidentally, I get paid for it, but, for every one like me there is a dozen who are only doing that so they can afford to pay their rent. If I couldn’t get paid to write code and solve problems with that, I’d have to do something else, perhaps something I don’t enjoy at all, in order to provide for my family. If you can completely avoid doing that, congratulations. You win.
gdsdfe 5y ago
they're posting them selfs in social media ... no they don't want to be left unknown
dalbasal 5y ago
The first guy quoted wants to be like Diogenes. Diogenes didn't just live in his barrel quitely wanting to be left alone. He was a subversive figure, criticising and challenging everything: Plato, Alexander, Athenian nobles, sensibilities and social assumptions of his day. He was a famous troublemaker, and that's why we know of him today. I'm sure some Greek dude did really just want to be left alone.. we just don't know his name. Obviously, I'm not justifying China's paranoid response to any kind of cultural subversions or provocation. Proverbial barrel dwellers are a necessary critique, IMO. The salience of their message can be an important important signal or backpressure. You could make analogies to the US in the 60s, Japan in the 00s and I'm sure lots of others.
- nxc18 5y ago
  You can make analogies to the current, active antiwork movement. I think it is pretty clear that all of society is poorer for the existence of these people. Perhaps China’s ability to keep a lid on it is one small part of their relative economic competitiveness.
  - dalbasal 5y ago
    "Poorer for the existence of these people," is quite a statement... hard to define too, at least in a value-less way. I'm skeptical. I feel like there's an instinctive lunge from "these people irritate me" to "this is detrimental to society." In any case, you'd be writing off a fringe that has yielded quite a lot of stuff that I do like... like rock n roll. There is a definite connection there to the old "tune in drop out" mentality. The Beatles were some friends basically rejecting the rat race of their time and day, punk rock and hence most of modern pop, etc. Artists have always been receptive to subversive, diogenes-like ideas. A lot of hackers from the early microcomputer days were rat race rejectors too. As you close in on examples, it gets harder to generalize. Dude might be comparing himself to Diogenes, but I'd wager their motivations and ways are pretty different. Everyone row in the same direction is a bad analogy, IMO, for large societies. We need contrarians.
    - nxc18 5y ago
      Does going on tour and spending long hours hacking computer systems count as lying flat? I’d say they were just contrarians who worked differently, and we’ve got lots of those, working hard, in all parts of society. Entrepreneurs also reject the usual rat race but they do it so they can work harder and have even more responsibility.
      - dalbasal 5y ago
        It might, depending on who's doing the counting? I would estimate that they themselves would probably identify with some of these tangping people. Spending long hours hacking computer systems, dressed in ripped jeans listening to Pink Floyd only looks like work in retrospect. ATT, much of it probably looked like an overindulgent hobby. Same for hanging out and playing guitar. Diogenes himself left quite a legacy. Pretty direct line from him to stoicism, for example. Most bummy subcultures don't become the Homebrew Computer Club, Beatles or whatnot. Some do.
- FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
  "If only I could satisfy my hunger by rubbing my belly!" -Diogenes
- isk517 5y ago
  Considering that his post went viral and is inspiring others he should be careful he does not end up being more like Socrates.
  - dalbasal 5y ago
    True. Some things don't change, I suppose.

rbanffy 5y ago

I think choosing not to participate in the “rat race” is a powerful statement. I write code for fun and, incidentally, I get paid for it, but, for every one like me there is a dozen who are only doing that so they can afford to pay their rent. If I couldn’t get paid to write code and solve problems with that, I’d have to do something else, perhaps something I don’t enjoy at all, in order to provide for my family. If you can completely avoid doing that, congratulations. You win.

gdsdfe 5y ago

they're posting them selfs in social media ... no they don't want to be left unknown

dalbasal 5y ago

The first guy quoted wants to be like Diogenes. Diogenes didn't just live in his barrel quitely wanting to be left alone. He was a subversive figure, criticising and challenging everything: Plato, Alexander, Athenian nobles, sensibilities and social assumptions of his day. He was a famous troublemaker, and that's why we know of him today. I'm sure some Greek dude did really just want to be left alone.. we just don't know his name. Obviously, I'm not justifying China's paranoid response to any kind of cultural subversions or provocation. Proverbial barrel dwellers are a necessary critique, IMO. The salience of their message can be an important important signal or backpressure. You could make analogies to the US in the 60s, Japan in the 00s and I'm sure lots of others.

nxc18 5y ago
You can make analogies to the current, active antiwork movement. I think it is pretty clear that all of society is poorer for the existence of these people. Perhaps China’s ability to keep a lid on it is one small part of their relative economic competitiveness.
- dalbasal 5y ago
  "Poorer for the existence of these people," is quite a statement... hard to define too, at least in a value-less way. I'm skeptical. I feel like there's an instinctive lunge from "these people irritate me" to "this is detrimental to society." In any case, you'd be writing off a fringe that has yielded quite a lot of stuff that I do like... like rock n roll. There is a definite connection there to the old "tune in drop out" mentality. The Beatles were some friends basically rejecting the rat race of their time and day, punk rock and hence most of modern pop, etc. Artists have always been receptive to subversive, diogenes-like ideas. A lot of hackers from the early microcomputer days were rat race rejectors too. As you close in on examples, it gets harder to generalize. Dude might be comparing himself to Diogenes, but I'd wager their motivations and ways are pretty different. Everyone row in the same direction is a bad analogy, IMO, for large societies. We need contrarians.
  - nxc18 5y ago
    Does going on tour and spending long hours hacking computer systems count as lying flat? I’d say they were just contrarians who worked differently, and we’ve got lots of those, working hard, in all parts of society. Entrepreneurs also reject the usual rat race but they do it so they can work harder and have even more responsibility.
    - dalbasal 5y ago
      It might, depending on who's doing the counting? I would estimate that they themselves would probably identify with some of these tangping people. Spending long hours hacking computer systems, dressed in ripped jeans listening to Pink Floyd only looks like work in retrospect. ATT, much of it probably looked like an overindulgent hobby. Same for hanging out and playing guitar. Diogenes himself left quite a legacy. Pretty direct line from him to stoicism, for example. Most bummy subcultures don't become the Homebrew Computer Club, Beatles or whatnot. Some do.
FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
"If only I could satisfy my hunger by rubbing my belly!" -Diogenes
isk517 5y ago
Considering that his post went viral and is inspiring others he should be careful he does not end up being more like Socrates.
- dalbasal 5y ago
  True. Some things don't change, I suppose.