5 ms·

What makes me really nervous is that we're nearing the point when Google's Prediction API and its knock-offs will increasingly pervade web sites much in the way

by law 15y ago

What makes me really nervous is that we're nearing the point when Google's Prediction API and its knock-offs will increasingly pervade web sites much in the way that AJAX and other technologies have. While overuse of AJAX and the Facebook "Like" button is extremely annoying, it's still pretty harmless. Machine learning, on the other hand, isn't innocuous. In order to use the Prediction API, you need a large corpus of data, which will just further incentivize web sites to ignore the privacy implications of their actions. Machine learning is far too abstract and too much of an "umbrella" term for it to be anything but careless to refer to it as some sort of panacea. If you thought that Facebook's "Beacon" was a slap in the face to online privacy, just wait until you see what the feature holds. Once machine learning libraries with extremely robust, completely unsupervised classifiers become more abundant, we're going to see an exponential increase in the market for data. Banner advertisements will be replaced with much more terrifying 'targeted' ads, and we will enter into an age where we are judged not by the empirical evidence of our actions, but the inferences made from people who behave like us.

the_cat_kittles 15y ago
If you act on the internet like you would in real life, it doesn't seem like such a big deal. How is getting relevant ads a bad thing?
- law 15y ago
  Because in real life, there are plenty of laws that prevent invasions into privacy. Also, the people capable of doing the same in real life don't have the tools to create truly personal advertisements. For example, a supermarket chain might use an aggregate of purchase histories (i.e., products most often purchased together) to influence product placement in the store. They won't re-position products for each customer as they walk in the door, though... Online, this can, and does, happen. It might not seem like a big deal when it's useful. However, there will be many instances of people trying, and failing, at creating a useful product. I think that's a valid point of distinction: when people fail at adopting new technologies right now, the results are mostly harmless. If they fail with machine learning, there could be some major privacy concerns.
- droz 15y ago
  Couple years back, I spent a few weeks looking through different jewelry sites for a necklace for my girlfriend. During this time, I let my girlfriend borrow my laptop one night. Each site that she visited was riddled with ads for engagement rings. Next thing I know, she's giving me the twenty questions about why I'm looking at engagement rings. Some things need to be kept private even if they are benign.
  - the_cat_kittles 15y ago
    oh shit. You make a good point sir.
  - codedivine 15y ago
    So, did you get engaged :)?
  - tincholio 15y ago
    That's why the FSM gave us private browsing modes
    - Groxx 15y ago
      And lo, the FSM didst claim it wasn't just for teh pronz. And the people did laugh. And wink. And nudge each other. Until it was too late. Until your spam filter thought it wasn't spam. And on that day, the privacy geeks didth retort: "told ya so."
  - itrackmine 15y ago
    Yea, that's going to continue to be the case until someone (cough us, cough) figures out that what you look at or buy on one occasion might not actually be something you're interested in. Specifically speaking of //items//, this is really a huge issue that is so huge that it's almost become laughable in the sense that nearly all the recommendations via "machine learning" (Collaborative Filtering, Trust Systems, etc) nowadays end up being so tainted that they are worthless - to you, and to the companies spitting them out. I call it "Recommendation Blindness" (copyright 2008...20% on usage...etc...etc..sue you..etc.....I'm just kidding of course).
Estragon 15y ago
Do you really think such a turnkey ML service is possible, though?
- law 15y ago
  Absolutely, especially if it integrates with already-existing applications. For example, I think there's room for a turn-key "plug-in" to phpBB that offers thread-specific advertisements. Same thing with wordpress.
bluekeybox 15y ago
> Banner advertisements will be replaced with much more terrifying 'targeted' ads Can someone please explain to me why ads for stuff I might actually be willing to buy (as opposed to hyper-annoying junk thrown at me every day) terrify so many people? Not that I am ambivalent to privacy issues; just playing devil's advocate here.
- ericd 15y ago
  I think it's the feeling that someone is watching them. We know it's just computers, data, and statistics, but if you didn't understand that, I imagine it would be a bit scarier.
- makmanalp 15y ago
  First, everyone assumed that no one knew knew about anything they did on the net. They thought that when they looked at an oven mitt in an online store, only they knew about it. The truth was that information was just unused by the store, and so the user never saw it. Gradually, this notion became slowly dispelled when stores actually started leveraging this information to provide, for example, suggestions. It's all fine and good here. Finally came targeted ads. The part that people find terrifying is when the suggestions are "following them around!". This is creepy in multiple aspects: The first is that people don't quite understand how this happens (of course, we do). How is this information showing up in different websites? Did the store just let these other sites handle my information? In their eyes, the boundaries for who is allowed to my personal information seem to blur. This also breaks the paradigm of location that the user has in their mind. "If I don't go to site X that is, I won't see anything about site X." It looks like everyone knows everything. The second is that it's creepy-through-analogy. The fact that it's going wherever you're going and nagging you constantly is weird. When I walk into a retail store, I'm usually asked if I want any help, and I decline politely. If, however, the salesperson keeps approaching me and trying to sell me things that I don't want, I get the fuck out. With targeted ads, the average user can't do that! The creepy sales guy is following you out to the street and into your home. This usually ends in extreme frustration. Finally, there are also some nuances that targeted ads miss. Targeted adds are actually not that targeted, they're just there to grab at the "low hanging fruit" customers that are on the verge of making a decision. Just because I looked at a dildo once because I thought it was funny doesn't mean I want to be bombarded with the world's finest penis emulators for the next 3 days.

by law 15y ago

the_cat_kittles 15y ago

If you act on the internet like you would in real life, it doesn't seem like such a big deal. How is getting relevant ads a bad thing?

law 15y ago
Because in real life, there are plenty of laws that prevent invasions into privacy. Also, the people capable of doing the same in real life don't have the tools to create truly personal advertisements. For example, a supermarket chain might use an aggregate of purchase histories (i.e., products most often purchased together) to influence product placement in the store. They won't re-position products for each customer as they walk in the door, though... Online, this can, and does, happen. It might not seem like a big deal when it's useful. However, there will be many instances of people trying, and failing, at creating a useful product. I think that's a valid point of distinction: when people fail at adopting new technologies right now, the results are mostly harmless. If they fail with machine learning, there could be some major privacy concerns.
droz 15y ago
Couple years back, I spent a few weeks looking through different jewelry sites for a necklace for my girlfriend. During this time, I let my girlfriend borrow my laptop one night. Each site that she visited was riddled with ads for engagement rings. Next thing I know, she's giving me the twenty questions about why I'm looking at engagement rings. Some things need to be kept private even if they are benign.
- the_cat_kittles 15y ago
  oh shit. You make a good point sir.
- codedivine 15y ago
  So, did you get engaged :)?
- tincholio 15y ago
  That's why the FSM gave us private browsing modes
  - Groxx 15y ago
    And lo, the FSM didst claim it wasn't just for teh pronz. And the people did laugh. And wink. And nudge each other. Until it was too late. Until your spam filter thought it wasn't spam. And on that day, the privacy geeks didth retort: "told ya so."
- itrackmine 15y ago
  Yea, that's going to continue to be the case until someone (cough us, cough) figures out that what you look at or buy on one occasion might not actually be something you're interested in. Specifically speaking of //items//, this is really a huge issue that is so huge that it's almost become laughable in the sense that nearly all the recommendations via "machine learning" (Collaborative Filtering, Trust Systems, etc) nowadays end up being so tainted that they are worthless - to you, and to the companies spitting them out. I call it "Recommendation Blindness" (copyright 2008...20% on usage...etc...etc..sue you..etc.....I'm just kidding of course).

Estragon 15y ago

Do you really think such a turnkey ML service is possible, though?

law 15y ago
Absolutely, especially if it integrates with already-existing applications. For example, I think there's room for a turn-key "plug-in" to phpBB that offers thread-specific advertisements. Same thing with wordpress.

bluekeybox 15y ago

> Banner advertisements will be replaced with much more terrifying 'targeted' ads Can someone please explain to me why ads for stuff I might actually be willing to buy (as opposed to hyper-annoying junk thrown at me every day) terrify so many people? Not that I am ambivalent to privacy issues; just playing devil's advocate here.

ericd 15y ago
I think it's the feeling that someone is watching them. We know it's just computers, data, and statistics, but if you didn't understand that, I imagine it would be a bit scarier.
makmanalp 15y ago
First, everyone assumed that no one knew knew about anything they did on the net. They thought that when they looked at an oven mitt in an online store, only they knew about it. The truth was that information was just unused by the store, and so the user never saw it. Gradually, this notion became slowly dispelled when stores actually started leveraging this information to provide, for example, suggestions. It's all fine and good here. Finally came targeted ads. The part that people find terrifying is when the suggestions are "following them around!". This is creepy in multiple aspects: The first is that people don't quite understand how this happens (of course, we do). How is this information showing up in different websites? Did the store just let these other sites handle my information? In their eyes, the boundaries for who is allowed to my personal information seem to blur. This also breaks the paradigm of location that the user has in their mind. "If I don't go to site X that is, I won't see anything about site X." It looks like everyone knows everything. The second is that it's creepy-through-analogy. The fact that it's going wherever you're going and nagging you constantly is weird. When I walk into a retail store, I'm usually asked if I want any help, and I decline politely. If, however, the salesperson keeps approaching me and trying to sell me things that I don't want, I get the fuck out. With targeted ads, the average user can't do that! The creepy sales guy is following you out to the street and into your home. This usually ends in extreme frustration. Finally, there are also some nuances that targeted ads miss. Targeted adds are actually not that targeted, they're just there to grab at the "low hanging fruit" customers that are on the verge of making a decision. Just because I looked at a dildo once because I thought it was funny doesn't mean I want to be bombarded with the world's finest penis emulators for the next 3 days.