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> The US isn't actively committing genocide against a specific ethnic group right now Is this the bar to pass in order to be allowed to collect any kind of dat

> The US isn't actively committing genocide against a specific ethnic group right now Is this the bar to pass in order to be allowed to collect any kind of data from any person around the world? On top of that I really doubt this is a topic you're ready to defend beyond massively downplaying what one side has done. Just between the US global spying revelations, their treatment of black citizens, and the civilian casualties of their "war on terror" it should be very clear that there's no moral argument that the US can make in front of most of the world. And indeed, believe it or not, for the majority of the world the US is to them what China is to the US. Let's not lie to ourselves, both US and China engage in the same kind of "superpower tactics", and both are past the point where they can point fingers at each other or anyone else. You're defending one because the other is worse. Does this really matter when you have the choice of "both are plain wrong"? Somewhere in China there's a regular citizen insisting the opposite, and looking from afar both are equally biased and wrong.

atlasunshrugged 5y ago
I will 100% die on the hill arguing that the US is a better global actor than China. Should the committing of genocide be the bar? No, of course not, but it's the most egregious example I could think of that demonstrates what a bad actor the CCP is. RE global spying - everyone does it, this is the age we live in and I don't really care. EDIT (I responded too strongly here. I do care somewhat but not as strongly as I expect most in the HN audience do) RE treatment of black citizens (I'll extend this to basically everyone except white and some model minorities: Of course, this is awful and the US has a terrible track record. But again, if you take the worse the US is doing (say basically government officials killing black people with little reason or repercussion) it still pales in comparison to what China is doing to Uyghurs. RE "War on terror": Yeah, that it a total moral failure and debacle, no argument there.
- buran77 5y ago
  > I will 100% die on the hill arguing that the US is a better global actor than China You dodged the question. "Better" means nothing when we're talking about two really bad choices. There's a world of difference between good and better. If "better" was enough we'd all poke out one eye because it's objectively better than poking out both. But I think we can agree that they're both very bad options. When someone says the US has been collecting DNA data for years justifying it by "China is doing bad stuff" adds nothing to the conversation. Neither should do it. > this is the age we live in and I don't really care. This is the product of a severely compromised education system. Opinions are fed to people rather than formed by careful analysis. And usually end with an "I don't care" when at a loss for words. > Of course global spying is bad but [I don't really care] > Of course the treatment of black people is awful but [I don't really care] > Of course the war on terror is a moral failure but [I don't really care] When your only moral benchmark is China do you actually have a defensible position when doing some things they also do?
  - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
    What exactly is the question that you think I dodged? I guess I must have missed it because that wasn't my intention. However, I disagree that "better means nothing when we're talking about two really bad choices." We are talking about the two superpowers as they exist today, not a hypothetical reality. I don't appreciate the personal attack about the education system and myself being affected by it. I said what I meant RE global spying, I can back up my reasoning with a much longer argument but I didn't think it was that important or necessary. I don't understand your points about the last two (treatment of black people and war on terror). I thought it was pretty clear I thought those were awful... also not to get too personal but I am part black and grew up in a small rural area, don't think I don't understand what exactly racism is.
    - buran77 5y ago
      > What exactly is the question that you think I dodged? It was the top of my comment but I'll help you out also with the background, although it leaves me with the strong impression that you neither read it, nor are willing to actually have a worthwhile conversation. OP>>> this is exactly how the rest of the world feels about US-based companies harvesting dna data for years YOU>> The US isn't actively committing genocide against a specific ethnic group right now ME> Is this the bar to pass in order to be allowed to collect any kind of data from any person around the world? You're justifying why everyone else should be OK with the US to collect DNA but not for China because "genocide". So tell me, is that the bar you have to pass to collect DNA data from around the world or any similar effort? So you tell me how either of these countries is entitled to do it. Is everyone else bound to lower the standards and necessarily use the lowest bar to judge a matter? The problem is some people would justify eating a baby because China ate two. That's an easy way to make all the wrong choices and justify all the wrong things: China does even worse. Will you accept any abuse from US leadership as long as it's not outright genocide?
      - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
        ... My answer to that was literally in the first lines of my response. Here it is again. "I will 100% die on the hill arguing that the US is a better global actor than China. Should the committing of genocide be the bar? No, of course not, but it's the most egregious example I could think of that demonstrates what a bad actor the CCP is."

atlasunshrugged 5y ago

I will 100% die on the hill arguing that the US is a better global actor than China. Should the committing of genocide be the bar? No, of course not, but it's the most egregious example I could think of that demonstrates what a bad actor the CCP is. RE global spying - everyone does it, this is the age we live in and I don't really care. EDIT (I responded too strongly here. I do care somewhat but not as strongly as I expect most in the HN audience do) RE treatment of black citizens (I'll extend this to basically everyone except white and some model minorities: Of course, this is awful and the US has a terrible track record. But again, if you take the worse the US is doing (say basically government officials killing black people with little reason or repercussion) it still pales in comparison to what China is doing to Uyghurs. RE "War on terror": Yeah, that it a total moral failure and debacle, no argument there.

buran77 5y ago
> I will 100% die on the hill arguing that the US is a better global actor than China You dodged the question. "Better" means nothing when we're talking about two really bad choices. There's a world of difference between good and better. If "better" was enough we'd all poke out one eye because it's objectively better than poking out both. But I think we can agree that they're both very bad options. When someone says the US has been collecting DNA data for years justifying it by "China is doing bad stuff" adds nothing to the conversation. Neither should do it. > this is the age we live in and I don't really care. This is the product of a severely compromised education system. Opinions are fed to people rather than formed by careful analysis. And usually end with an "I don't care" when at a loss for words. > Of course global spying is bad but [I don't really care] > Of course the treatment of black people is awful but [I don't really care] > Of course the war on terror is a moral failure but [I don't really care] When your only moral benchmark is China do you actually have a defensible position when doing some things they also do?
- atlasunshrugged 5y ago
  What exactly is the question that you think I dodged? I guess I must have missed it because that wasn't my intention. However, I disagree that "better means nothing when we're talking about two really bad choices." We are talking about the two superpowers as they exist today, not a hypothetical reality. I don't appreciate the personal attack about the education system and myself being affected by it. I said what I meant RE global spying, I can back up my reasoning with a much longer argument but I didn't think it was that important or necessary. I don't understand your points about the last two (treatment of black people and war on terror). I thought it was pretty clear I thought those were awful... also not to get too personal but I am part black and grew up in a small rural area, don't think I don't understand what exactly racism is.
  - buran77 5y ago
    > What exactly is the question that you think I dodged? It was the top of my comment but I'll help you out also with the background, although it leaves me with the strong impression that you neither read it, nor are willing to actually have a worthwhile conversation. OP>>> this is exactly how the rest of the world feels about US-based companies harvesting dna data for years YOU>> The US isn't actively committing genocide against a specific ethnic group right now ME> Is this the bar to pass in order to be allowed to collect any kind of data from any person around the world? You're justifying why everyone else should be OK with the US to collect DNA but not for China because "genocide". So tell me, is that the bar you have to pass to collect DNA data from around the world or any similar effort? So you tell me how either of these countries is entitled to do it. Is everyone else bound to lower the standards and necessarily use the lowest bar to judge a matter? The problem is some people would justify eating a baby because China ate two. That's an easy way to make all the wrong choices and justify all the wrong things: China does even worse. Will you accept any abuse from US leadership as long as it's not outright genocide?
    - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
      ... My answer to that was literally in the first lines of my response. Here it is again. "I will 100% die on the hill arguing that the US is a better global actor than China. Should the committing of genocide be the bar? No, of course not, but it's the most egregious example I could think of that demonstrates what a bad actor the CCP is."