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> comparing the actions of a democratic country that promotes rule of law globally (although I am well aware sometimes realpolitik and worse happens) versus a c

by disgu 5y ago

> comparing the actions of a democratic country that promotes rule of law globally (although I am well aware sometimes realpolitik and worse happens) versus a country that has no regard for a rules based order or anything other than increasing their own power seems like a false comparison Are you aware that most of the world sees the US not as a country that promotes the rule of law but the one country that's the biggest risk to world peace? It has been like that for many years. The US completely ignores and shits on every single rule it claims to uphold the very moment it becomes inconvenient to keep following it.

deviledeggs 5y ago
China has imprisoned millions of people in one of the biggest ethnic genocides since Nazi gernany. They murder people to sell their organs. The US is a mess but comparing them to a morally bankrupt genocidal China is disingenuous
- post_below 5y ago
  Your point is valid but it's a question of degree rather than category. The Uyghur camps are about as evil as you can get, no question, but how much cumulative death and suffering has been caused by decades of destabilizing, bombing and invading the middle east? As just one example. From an outside perspective, no one is buying the US propaganda around the oil wars any more than people are buying Chinese propaganda about their camps. China being arguably worse doesn't evict the US from the category of destructive superpowers. I think there's value in being honest about that.
  - atlasunshrugged 5y ago
    I have no argument in favor of the war on terror, it was based on a false premise and a total moral failure. I don't think any Americans buy the propaganda around it either. I just disagree as to whether the US is truly a 'destructive superpower' - I personally believe that the country has been a net good for the world, even if sometimes its actions had negative consequences. Under American leadership post WWII the world has gotten richer, lives longer, and has fewer conflicts as a whole. Would this have happened without US leadership and instead under Soviet rule? Maybe, but I'm pretty skeptical.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      Except for the poor souls killed thanks to US weapons, or taken into planes and interrogated in unknown locations, imprisioned without trial for years and then dropped again into a random location. Very good example to look for, indeed.
      - _-david-_ 5y ago
        Every country has done immoral things. Nobody is denying that. What we are saying is the US is leagues above China. Any bad action done by the US has a similar action by China. Bombings, wars, false arrests, etc. The difference is the US is trying to move on and better itself while China is continuing with this behavior.
- akudha 5y ago
  It is pointless to compare the misdeeds of one superpower with another. Nobody becomes a superpower without doing shitty things, both at home and abroad. If we debate which superpower is least shitty, we’d be here all day. Also, we are well past the stage where the misdeeds of countries/groups don’t affect the broader world. A virus that originated in a small town has affected much of the world for the last 18 months. A single ship that got stuck in a canal for 10 days has the power to affect global commerce, Etc etc Nationalism and jingoism don’t hold as much meaning as they used to.
  - deviledeggs 5y ago
    Let's just not compare any country to another because most of it will make China look bad.
atlasunshrugged 5y ago
Really, most of the world and the biggest risk to world peace? I have been lucky enough not only to live and work abroad on 4 continents now including working directly for a non-American government and I think that claim is totally bunk. As for the US completely ignoring rules that it claims to uphold, I strongly disagree as you can see by WTO rulings that are unfavorable to the US. If you want to argue that the US set these organizations up post-WWII and they're unfairly supportive of the US I can agree with that but a blanket statement like yours is just incorrect.
- amarant 5y ago
  Sweden checking in, and no, not the biggest. At least not since the orange baboon left office. I'd personally rate the US as somewhere around third or fourth, behind Russia, China and possibly Israel. But surely more liability than world police. And don't tell me the last X wars the US has engaged in were entirely motivated by financial gain, cause I won't believe it! (It's ok though, our nation also went through a phase of plunder and rape, your country is younger, it's only natural you should have that phase a bit later than the rest of us)
canadianfella 5y ago
> sometimes realpolitik and worse happens What do you mean?
scrps 5y ago
Weird, I've lived in plenty of countries and I've met plenty of people from all over the world with valid criticisms of the U.S. government and yet I've maybe met a handful of people who esposed the opinion you claim is essentially de facto.

by disgu 5y ago

deviledeggs 5y ago

China has imprisoned millions of people in one of the biggest ethnic genocides since Nazi gernany. They murder people to sell their organs. The US is a mess but comparing them to a morally bankrupt genocidal China is disingenuous

post_below 5y ago
Your point is valid but it's a question of degree rather than category. The Uyghur camps are about as evil as you can get, no question, but how much cumulative death and suffering has been caused by decades of destabilizing, bombing and invading the middle east? As just one example. From an outside perspective, no one is buying the US propaganda around the oil wars any more than people are buying Chinese propaganda about their camps. China being arguably worse doesn't evict the US from the category of destructive superpowers. I think there's value in being honest about that.
- atlasunshrugged 5y ago
  I have no argument in favor of the war on terror, it was based on a false premise and a total moral failure. I don't think any Americans buy the propaganda around it either. I just disagree as to whether the US is truly a 'destructive superpower' - I personally believe that the country has been a net good for the world, even if sometimes its actions had negative consequences. Under American leadership post WWII the world has gotten richer, lives longer, and has fewer conflicts as a whole. Would this have happened without US leadership and instead under Soviet rule? Maybe, but I'm pretty skeptical.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Except for the poor souls killed thanks to US weapons, or taken into planes and interrogated in unknown locations, imprisioned without trial for years and then dropped again into a random location. Very good example to look for, indeed.
    - _-david-_ 5y ago
      Every country has done immoral things. Nobody is denying that. What we are saying is the US is leagues above China. Any bad action done by the US has a similar action by China. Bombings, wars, false arrests, etc. The difference is the US is trying to move on and better itself while China is continuing with this behavior.
akudha 5y ago
It is pointless to compare the misdeeds of one superpower with another. Nobody becomes a superpower without doing shitty things, both at home and abroad. If we debate which superpower is least shitty, we’d be here all day. Also, we are well past the stage where the misdeeds of countries/groups don’t affect the broader world. A virus that originated in a small town has affected much of the world for the last 18 months. A single ship that got stuck in a canal for 10 days has the power to affect global commerce, Etc etc Nationalism and jingoism don’t hold as much meaning as they used to.
- deviledeggs 5y ago
  Let's just not compare any country to another because most of it will make China look bad.

atlasunshrugged 5y ago

Really, most of the world and the biggest risk to world peace? I have been lucky enough not only to live and work abroad on 4 continents now including working directly for a non-American government and I think that claim is totally bunk. As for the US completely ignoring rules that it claims to uphold, I strongly disagree as you can see by WTO rulings that are unfavorable to the US. If you want to argue that the US set these organizations up post-WWII and they're unfairly supportive of the US I can agree with that but a blanket statement like yours is just incorrect.

amarant 5y ago
Sweden checking in, and no, not the biggest. At least not since the orange baboon left office. I'd personally rate the US as somewhere around third or fourth, behind Russia, China and possibly Israel. But surely more liability than world police. And don't tell me the last X wars the US has engaged in were entirely motivated by financial gain, cause I won't believe it! (It's ok though, our nation also went through a phase of plunder and rape, your country is younger, it's only natural you should have that phase a bit later than the rest of us)

canadianfella 5y ago

> sometimes realpolitik and worse happens What do you mean?

scrps 5y ago

Weird, I've lived in plenty of countries and I've met plenty of people from all over the world with valid criticisms of the U.S. government and yet I've maybe met a handful of people who esposed the opinion you claim is essentially de facto.