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That’s an interesting argument. What defines “value” in your mind? The platform brings value to artists (financial freedom to create more art), value to collect

That’s an interesting argument. What defines “value” in your mind? The platform brings value to artists (financial freedom to create more art), value to collectors (digital ownership over a scarce conceptual artwork), and value to the art world (more digital art being created by a more diverse group of people). Not all may agree with these values, and perhaps this platform and it’s tokens will not persist after some years, but I’m not sure that means the project does not currently provide value to those participating in it. Because “NFTs are dead” (according to the media) we have hopefully past the moment of tulip mania. But perhaps it will really take some more months or years for this to truly “die” — during which time the artists have a viable marketplace to distribute their art and earn revenue on it, where no prior option existed for them. Or, perhaps it will not die so quickly, if enough people continue to see value in collecting and supporting digital artists in this way. Time will tell.

skohan 5y ago
Value is a tricky thing to define, but I would probably define value in terms of utility: you are able to create value for someone if you allow them to solve a problem or gain satisfaction, using less resources than they otherwise could. The sticking point for me with your proposed value proposition is here: > value to collectors (digital ownership over a scarce conceptual artwork) My question would be: is it really digital ownership that collectors are interested in? Or is it the chance for future profit on the assumption that these NFTs may increase in value. I suspect in most cases it is the latter, and in this case we don't have value creation, we have speculation. Essentially it's just a bet with a very significant downside risk. Speculation, especially in an atmosphere of irrational exuberance, is much more likely to result in the destruction of value than the creation of it.
- mattdesl 5y ago
  I think you may be viewing this through the lens of high priced NFTs that are in the millions, and are mostly speculative assets for a crypto trader’s portfolio. When I buy a digital art token worth 1 XTZ (around 2-3 USD), it is closer to skipping my morning coffee for the chance to support an artist’s latest work, perhaps from an artist that I have been following for years on Twitter or Instagram without giving them any support besides Likes and Retweets (“exposure”). I have no intention of flipping or speculating on the art — but of course if there is demand for that token I may consider trading it, as it would give me even more XTZ funds to continue supporting other artists in this way. I have not yet re-sold any Tezos NFTs, and I have bought hundreds from many different artists and illustrators. If none of these ever sell, I won’t feel like I have lost anything, because the value I see in this is not in the speculative nature of the asset. And to your question: yes, many collectors appreciate the digital ownership aspect, and enjoy building out carefully curated galleries and showcases of their owned tokens, much like many traditional art collectors take pride in owning and displaying their collection.
  - Traster 5y ago
    What value does crypto bring to you that a artist running a shopify store does not? It sounds like the NFT is entirely irrelevant in this transaction other than possibly providing a socially acceptable route that is better than a PayPal donate button.
    - mattdesl 5y ago
      I am an artist running a Shopify store (prints), and also have been selling via NFTs on Tezos and Ethereum for the last few months. If NFT continues to be profitable in the long term (even a fraction of what it is currently), there will be no need for me to continue using Shopify. Consider the fees alone: I pay monthly fees for Shopify, for art printing and shipping, pens and physical materials, hosting my domain name and studio email, and so on. Not to mention the cost of my time (replying to emails, customer support, editing my store's website, etc). All of this to enable revenue on my primarily digital art. I do enjoy making physical art prints, but I mostly work with software and code, and the art I make is better experienced digitally. Before NFTs, there was no established mechanism to earn revenue on digital art (primarily because there was no established mechanism to 'own' digital art), so I was forced to adopt physical printing and e-commerce despite it's high costs, annoyances, and generally poor return on investment. In contrast, I can mint an art token on Hicetnunc for less than 25c USD. These fees do not go to a central platform like Shopify, but to the blockchain that helps maintain the provenance and permanence of the tokens I am distributing. There are many other benefits of blockchain in this digital art space, I have written about it extensively[1]. [1] - https://mattdesl.substack.com/p/subscapes-part-1-preface https://mattdesl.substack.com/p/subscapes-part-1-preface
      - detaro 5y ago
        > and the art I make is better experienced digitally. That's where it breaks down when buying stuff for me personally. Prints admittedly run into the issue of "walls get full", but I have not figured out a way to regularly enjoy digital art, especially since everything comes in different sizes and scales. Plenty artists I follow (you included ;)) now are on HEN, but that has kept me from getting into any of it, even though I get the limitations of prints. There have been combinations of screen + digital art "subscription" in the past, which I never liked because of their closed nature, but maybe some amount of standardization/embedded display hints/... towards a more open variant of that will develop.

skohan 5y ago

Value is a tricky thing to define, but I would probably define value in terms of utility: you are able to create value for someone if you allow them to solve a problem or gain satisfaction, using less resources than they otherwise could. The sticking point for me with your proposed value proposition is here: > value to collectors (digital ownership over a scarce conceptual artwork) My question would be: is it really digital ownership that collectors are interested in? Or is it the chance for future profit on the assumption that these NFTs may increase in value. I suspect in most cases it is the latter, and in this case we don't have value creation, we have speculation. Essentially it's just a bet with a very significant downside risk. Speculation, especially in an atmosphere of irrational exuberance, is much more likely to result in the destruction of value than the creation of it.

mattdesl 5y ago
I think you may be viewing this through the lens of high priced NFTs that are in the millions, and are mostly speculative assets for a crypto trader’s portfolio. When I buy a digital art token worth 1 XTZ (around 2-3 USD), it is closer to skipping my morning coffee for the chance to support an artist’s latest work, perhaps from an artist that I have been following for years on Twitter or Instagram without giving them any support besides Likes and Retweets (“exposure”). I have no intention of flipping or speculating on the art — but of course if there is demand for that token I may consider trading it, as it would give me even more XTZ funds to continue supporting other artists in this way. I have not yet re-sold any Tezos NFTs, and I have bought hundreds from many different artists and illustrators. If none of these ever sell, I won’t feel like I have lost anything, because the value I see in this is not in the speculative nature of the asset. And to your question: yes, many collectors appreciate the digital ownership aspect, and enjoy building out carefully curated galleries and showcases of their owned tokens, much like many traditional art collectors take pride in owning and displaying their collection.
- Traster 5y ago
  What value does crypto bring to you that a artist running a shopify store does not? It sounds like the NFT is entirely irrelevant in this transaction other than possibly providing a socially acceptable route that is better than a PayPal donate button.
  - mattdesl 5y ago
    I am an artist running a Shopify store (prints), and also have been selling via NFTs on Tezos and Ethereum for the last few months. If NFT continues to be profitable in the long term (even a fraction of what it is currently), there will be no need for me to continue using Shopify. Consider the fees alone: I pay monthly fees for Shopify, for art printing and shipping, pens and physical materials, hosting my domain name and studio email, and so on. Not to mention the cost of my time (replying to emails, customer support, editing my store's website, etc). All of this to enable revenue on my primarily digital art. I do enjoy making physical art prints, but I mostly work with software and code, and the art I make is better experienced digitally. Before NFTs, there was no established mechanism to earn revenue on digital art (primarily because there was no established mechanism to 'own' digital art), so I was forced to adopt physical printing and e-commerce despite it's high costs, annoyances, and generally poor return on investment. In contrast, I can mint an art token on Hicetnunc for less than 25c USD. These fees do not go to a central platform like Shopify, but to the blockchain that helps maintain the provenance and permanence of the tokens I am distributing. There are many other benefits of blockchain in this digital art space, I have written about it extensively[1]. [1] - https://mattdesl.substack.com/p/subscapes-part-1-preface https://mattdesl.substack.com/p/subscapes-part-1-preface
    - detaro 5y ago
      > and the art I make is better experienced digitally. That's where it breaks down when buying stuff for me personally. Prints admittedly run into the issue of "walls get full", but I have not figured out a way to regularly enjoy digital art, especially since everything comes in different sizes and scales. Plenty artists I follow (you included ;)) now are on HEN, but that has kept me from getting into any of it, even though I get the limitations of prints. There have been combinations of screen + digital art "subscription" in the past, which I never liked because of their closed nature, but maybe some amount of standardization/embedded display hints/... towards a more open variant of that will develop.