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> This is the purpose of labor organizing. A strike, work stoppage, slow down, or other action will exert pressure on decision makers directly. Lately I've bee

> This is the purpose of labor organizing. A strike, work stoppage, slow down, or other action will exert pressure on decision makers directly. Lately I've been been wondering regarding labor organization: why not cut out the negotiation part and start companies directly run by unions? Or, as they're more commonly called, co-ops. Intuitively, it seems to better align the decision-makers with the laborers because they become the same people. Maybe it's the same Facebook-vs-Mastodon problem in that people want to work at the popular place with the large market share but they also want to have their human rights respected, and a co-op doesn't offer the former.

tehjoker 5y ago
I agree, co-ops are far superior to private corporations. However, they still exist in a market and the market will force them to make many similar decisions to private corporations. This is why we need a consciously planned economy. We cannot be free without the ability to make meaningful decisions.
- indigochill 5y ago
  > the market will force them to make many similar decisions to private corporations I'm curious which decisions you believe will be forced. The cases I can think of (particularly around "engagement" since I've been reading about that lately) are decisions that derive from deeper decisions (building your business around selling ads) that are at some point within a company's control. And it may be that the company will need to make decisions employees don't like even if they're the ones who have to make the decisions, but at least then they're involved in the decision-making process rather than having it dictated to them. > This is why we need a consciously planned economy. We cannot be free without the ability to make meaningful decisions. At face value this sounds like an oxymoron to me. A planned economy is planned by someone. Then those living with that economy are beholden to the one(s) doing the planning, who will naturally be motivated to plan in their own favor to the detriment of others. Some mechanism would need to be applied to counteract the natural self-interest of the planner(s).
  - tehjoker 5y ago
    > I'm curious which decisions you believe will be forced. Decisions around how hard to work, how much to extract from customers, business model, suppliers, environmentalism, etc. Anything that is dictated by needing to be profitable. It is possible to run essential services at a loss or neutrally because they provide public benefits that are not easily capturable as private profit. > And it may be that the company will need to make decisions employees don't like even if they're the ones who have to make the decisions, but at least then they're involved in the decision-making process rather than having it dictated to them. Ideally they would be able to make decisions that serve them and their customers well. Not always possible, but market logic severely restricts the possibilities. > At face value this sounds like an oxymoron to me. A planned economy is planned by someone. There is a huge literature on how this might be accomplished. Local planning can be accomplished democratically at the ground level and information passed up and down a chain to larger bodies that gather more inputs. Smaller bodies at different levels of the chain can have various veto powers.

tehjoker 5y ago

I agree, co-ops are far superior to private corporations. However, they still exist in a market and the market will force them to make many similar decisions to private corporations. This is why we need a consciously planned economy. We cannot be free without the ability to make meaningful decisions.

indigochill 5y ago
> the market will force them to make many similar decisions to private corporations I'm curious which decisions you believe will be forced. The cases I can think of (particularly around "engagement" since I've been reading about that lately) are decisions that derive from deeper decisions (building your business around selling ads) that are at some point within a company's control. And it may be that the company will need to make decisions employees don't like even if they're the ones who have to make the decisions, but at least then they're involved in the decision-making process rather than having it dictated to them. > This is why we need a consciously planned economy. We cannot be free without the ability to make meaningful decisions. At face value this sounds like an oxymoron to me. A planned economy is planned by someone. Then those living with that economy are beholden to the one(s) doing the planning, who will naturally be motivated to plan in their own favor to the detriment of others. Some mechanism would need to be applied to counteract the natural self-interest of the planner(s).
- tehjoker 5y ago
  > I'm curious which decisions you believe will be forced. Decisions around how hard to work, how much to extract from customers, business model, suppliers, environmentalism, etc. Anything that is dictated by needing to be profitable. It is possible to run essential services at a loss or neutrally because they provide public benefits that are not easily capturable as private profit. > And it may be that the company will need to make decisions employees don't like even if they're the ones who have to make the decisions, but at least then they're involved in the decision-making process rather than having it dictated to them. Ideally they would be able to make decisions that serve them and their customers well. Not always possible, but market logic severely restricts the possibilities. > At face value this sounds like an oxymoron to me. A planned economy is planned by someone. There is a huge literature on how this might be accomplished. Local planning can be accomplished democratically at the ground level and information passed up and down a chain to larger bodies that gather more inputs. Smaller bodies at different levels of the chain can have various veto powers.