5 ms·

Because of our increasing need for copper for electric vehicles, which contain about 4 times as much copper as a regular vehicle, the search is on for untapped

by pdm55 5y ago

Because of our increasing need for copper for electric vehicles, which contain about 4 times as much copper as a regular vehicle, the search is on for untapped copper reserves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IZz26dR9ik&t=3s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IZz26dR9ik&t=3s

HPsquared 5y ago
Copper is good for electric vehicles but aluminium is a decent substitute for most applications if it was to become super expensive.
- rini17 5y ago
  For household wiring it's not so decent as it creeps, which causes arcing and fires. For other uses, wherever aluminium could be substituted, it already was, such as underground power wiring. However, there is development in carbon nanotubes, in the lab they already make wires on par with aluminium, so hopefully that will work out.
  - HPsquared 5y ago
    Arcing isn't a problem if the proper manufacturing processes are used (crimped connections basically).
    - rini17 5y ago
      Sure, but crimping is additional work.
  - Nasrudith 5y ago
    Carbon nanotubes while wonderous are not only expensive to manufacture but also seem to have issues with being asbestos-like despite their wonderous properties. I think automobiles may be a wrong application there although not as bad as break pads of the stuff.
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      The asbestos fear only applies to powder/chopped CNTs. But in typical fiber form (yarns and such), it’s not a hazard. It doesn’t exfoliate easily like asbestos does and so has no more risk than carbon fiber or fiberglass. The cost for good CNTs is insane, though.
- elihu 5y ago
  In some ways, it's better: lower weight relative to the current-carrying capacity. If I understand correctly, the main issue with aluminum is getting the connections right so that oxidation isn't an issue. If engineered correctly it shouldn't be a problem. Aluminum-wound motors are apparently also a thing, though (like with aluminum power cables) they tend to be physically larger than copper-wound motors for the equivalent amount of power.
  - pfdietz 5y ago
    Overhead electric power lines are typically aluminum-wrapped steel. They are not volume limited, so aluminum is better and cheaper than copper.
    - hinkley 5y ago
      The aluminum carries the current, the steel is for support (tensile strength). How do they keep galvanic action from eating the whole assembly? I've never been clear on that bit.
  - kortex 5y ago
    Yeah, it's great for long haul like high tension wires, not so great for houses and electromechanical contrivances. Prone to oxidation/corrosion, so you have to usually use special lugs, or wire nuts filled with this goop. I could be mis-remembering but I also feel like it's more prone to whiskers/pest when soldered to boards, especially lead-free mixes. Either way, ends have to be crimped, so that's more steps. Just generally more annoying and expensive to work with than copper.
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      Whiskers are due to tin, not aluminum. Aluminum for wiring works just fine if properly engineered and can be cheaper once that engineering is amortized.
      - EricE 5y ago
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  The Model 3 actually uses aluminum cabling in some places (I think the main cable between the battery and the motor/controller assembly). In certain applications where weight is at a greater premium than volume, it can actually be superior to copper as its resistivity divided by density is lower than copper. (BTW, lithium is even slightly better on that metric than aluminum, although it oxidizes extremely rapidly so has to be carefully protected, making it impractical). Extremely long-term, sufficiently high quality graphene or carbon nanotubes can theoretically have higher mass-specific resistivity than copper or even aluminum. But in practice, CNTs and graphene have much worse electrical conductivity due to defects and the need to conduct between tubes/crystal regions/bundles.
teruakohatu 5y ago
Copper wire (including motor windings) are easily and commonly recycled. Copper traces in a circuit board are a lot harder. When an electric car dies I assure you it is being stripped of copper from any parts that cannot be sold.
- kumarvvr 5y ago
  Yup. There is a whole industry that is involved in copper recycling. Copper is expensive and even scrap dealers deal with copper separately. In India, even street pickers know the value of copper.
  - goodcanadian 5y ago
    It is valuable enough that a fair bit is stolen: https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=killed+stealing+copper+wire https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=kil...
  - tsjq 5y ago
    Street pickers know the value of everything. That's their daily bread-butter. FMCG companies use CSR funds to make them pickup more of less-value trash.
  - hinkley 5y ago
    I knew an electrician who had a bucket of scrap next to the couch, and he'd strip wire or unravel windings while watching TV. Didn't pay as much as his day job, but it did pay (never asked if he was reporting the income or not).
austincheney 5y ago
Nope. They know where the best copper (among numerous other resources) is, but the cost to extract it is too high for political reasons. We are talking about known (already proven) resource deposits in the estimated $5-50 trillion range. 1. CAR/DRC 2. Afghanistan
- Razengan 5y ago
  Hopefully those traditionally poverty-stricken regions can now flourish from their metal equivalent of an oil rush.
  - badpun 5y ago
    In most cases, the riches from natural resources fund a cleptocratic regime, which does very little for the actual people. Often, the riches create conflicts (wars, civil wars) between competing cleptocracies, and the people suffer greatly in result. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse
    - tsjq 5y ago
      An interesting NPR article /podcast episode on how Norway handled this . "How To Avoid The Oil Curse : Planet Money : NPR" https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/09/06/140110346/how-to-avoid-the-oil-curse https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/09/06/140110346/how-...
      - jeffreyrogers 5y ago
        I think it boils down to: be Norwegian, i.e. have an already well functioning government and relatively egalitarian society.
        austincheney 5y ago
        Botswana figured it out too.
deviledeggs 5y ago
Copper is already expensive enough to have an impressive recycling rate. Over 90% last time I heard

by pdm55 5y ago

HPsquared 5y ago

Copper is good for electric vehicles but aluminium is a decent substitute for most applications if it was to become super expensive.

rini17 5y ago
For household wiring it's not so decent as it creeps, which causes arcing and fires. For other uses, wherever aluminium could be substituted, it already was, such as underground power wiring. However, there is development in carbon nanotubes, in the lab they already make wires on par with aluminium, so hopefully that will work out.
- HPsquared 5y ago
  Arcing isn't a problem if the proper manufacturing processes are used (crimped connections basically).
  - rini17 5y ago
    Sure, but crimping is additional work.
- Nasrudith 5y ago
  Carbon nanotubes while wonderous are not only expensive to manufacture but also seem to have issues with being asbestos-like despite their wonderous properties. I think automobiles may be a wrong application there although not as bad as break pads of the stuff.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    The asbestos fear only applies to powder/chopped CNTs. But in typical fiber form (yarns and such), it’s not a hazard. It doesn’t exfoliate easily like asbestos does and so has no more risk than carbon fiber or fiberglass. The cost for good CNTs is insane, though.
elihu 5y ago
In some ways, it's better: lower weight relative to the current-carrying capacity. If I understand correctly, the main issue with aluminum is getting the connections right so that oxidation isn't an issue. If engineered correctly it shouldn't be a problem. Aluminum-wound motors are apparently also a thing, though (like with aluminum power cables) they tend to be physically larger than copper-wound motors for the equivalent amount of power.
- pfdietz 5y ago
  Overhead electric power lines are typically aluminum-wrapped steel. They are not volume limited, so aluminum is better and cheaper than copper.
  - hinkley 5y ago
    The aluminum carries the current, the steel is for support (tensile strength). How do they keep galvanic action from eating the whole assembly? I've never been clear on that bit.
- kortex 5y ago
  Yeah, it's great for long haul like high tension wires, not so great for houses and electromechanical contrivances. Prone to oxidation/corrosion, so you have to usually use special lugs, or wire nuts filled with this goop. I could be mis-remembering but I also feel like it's more prone to whiskers/pest when soldered to boards, especially lead-free mixes. Either way, ends have to be crimped, so that's more steps. Just generally more annoying and expensive to work with than copper.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    Whiskers are due to tin, not aluminum. Aluminum for wiring works just fine if properly engineered and can be cheaper once that engineering is amortized.
    - EricE 5y ago
Robotbeat 5y ago
The Model 3 actually uses aluminum cabling in some places (I think the main cable between the battery and the motor/controller assembly). In certain applications where weight is at a greater premium than volume, it can actually be superior to copper as its resistivity divided by density is lower than copper. (BTW, lithium is even slightly better on that metric than aluminum, although it oxidizes extremely rapidly so has to be carefully protected, making it impractical). Extremely long-term, sufficiently high quality graphene or carbon nanotubes can theoretically have higher mass-specific resistivity than copper or even aluminum. But in practice, CNTs and graphene have much worse electrical conductivity due to defects and the need to conduct between tubes/crystal regions/bundles.

teruakohatu 5y ago

Copper wire (including motor windings) are easily and commonly recycled. Copper traces in a circuit board are a lot harder. When an electric car dies I assure you it is being stripped of copper from any parts that cannot be sold.

kumarvvr 5y ago
Yup. There is a whole industry that is involved in copper recycling. Copper is expensive and even scrap dealers deal with copper separately. In India, even street pickers know the value of copper.
- goodcanadian 5y ago
  It is valuable enough that a fair bit is stolen: https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=killed+stealing+copper+wire https://www.google.com/search?channel=fs&client=ubuntu&q=kil...
- tsjq 5y ago
  Street pickers know the value of everything. That's their daily bread-butter. FMCG companies use CSR funds to make them pickup more of less-value trash.
- hinkley 5y ago
  I knew an electrician who had a bucket of scrap next to the couch, and he'd strip wire or unravel windings while watching TV. Didn't pay as much as his day job, but it did pay (never asked if he was reporting the income or not).

austincheney 5y ago

Nope. They know where the best copper (among numerous other resources) is, but the cost to extract it is too high for political reasons. We are talking about known (already proven) resource deposits in the estimated $5-50 trillion range. 1. CAR/DRC 2. Afghanistan

Razengan 5y ago
Hopefully those traditionally poverty-stricken regions can now flourish from their metal equivalent of an oil rush.
- badpun 5y ago
  In most cases, the riches from natural resources fund a cleptocratic regime, which does very little for the actual people. Often, the riches create conflicts (wars, civil wars) between competing cleptocracies, and the people suffer greatly in result. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse
  - tsjq 5y ago
    An interesting NPR article /podcast episode on how Norway handled this . "How To Avoid The Oil Curse : Planet Money : NPR" https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/09/06/140110346/how-to-avoid-the-oil-curse https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/09/06/140110346/how-...
    - jeffreyrogers 5y ago
      I think it boils down to: be Norwegian, i.e. have an already well functioning government and relatively egalitarian society.
      - austincheney 5y ago
        Botswana figured it out too.

deviledeggs 5y ago

Copper is already expensive enough to have an impressive recycling rate. Over 90% last time I heard