3 ms·

(Can someone please clarify) how was that ideological rhetoric? Are these not historical facts? And if they are, aren't they relevant to a story about political

by Igelau 5y ago

(Can someone please clarify) how was that ideological rhetoric? Are these not historical facts? And if they are, aren't they relevant to a story about political instability in Haiti? Is Haitian politics itself off-topic? It seems like it's such emotionally charged territory due to its agonizing history that containing all the flame wars would constitute a de facto ban on the topic. Edit: really? There's a whole other thread making these exact same points that didn't get flagged https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27761847 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27761847

throwaway122 5y ago
> But debt is not just victor's justice; it can also be a way of punishing winners who weren't supposed to win. > permanent debt peonage > the temerity not only to rise up in rebellion, amidst grand declarations of universal rights and freedoms ...all seem like ideological rhetoric, and barely "facts".
- Igelau 5y ago
  > the temerity not only to rise up in rebellion, amidst grand declarations of universal rights and freedoms See, I read that in a sarcastic "how dare they" tone. Maybe that's why I don't think it's controversial. > But debt is not just victor's justice; it can also be a way of punishing winners who weren't supposed to win. Are you saying the debt/embargoes weren't meant to be punitive? "Weren't supposed to win" being the prevailing attitude of global economic powers of the time.
dang 5y ago
Yes you can clearly see the contrast between that thread and this one, starting from the root comments, and that's the point: it's possible to have a factual discussion, and it's possible to start a massive flamewar with exactly the same underlying facts. The burden is on commenters to contribute in ways that are likely to lead to the former, not the latter. Of course you can't know for sure what the effects will be, but you can play the odds. These things are fairly predictable. (Btw, I've partly answered your other questions in a different comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27776445 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27776445) Here are some principles that have emerged over the years here, as supports for the kind of discussion we're hoping for: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Intent doesn't communicate itself on the internet, so the burden is on the commenter to disambiguate. - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=disambiguate%20burden%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... The value of a comment is the expected value of the subthread it forms the root of. - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22expected%20value%22%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... Trolling can only be measured by effects, not intent. - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=troll%20effects%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... Scorched earth is not interesting. - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20scorched%20earth&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Igelau 5y ago
  Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'm afraid I still don't exactly understand where the post erred, because I think it provided valuable context that I was not aware of. OTOH I'm not the mod who had to deal with the mess, so if you say this is where the leak is, I've got to take your word for it. > Trolling can only be measured by effects, not intent. While I hope that principal helps you do your job, I also hope I never encounter it anywhere else. It's a free backdoor to deplatform anyone at anytime. Brigade the discussion and suddenly they're the troll. Yikes.
  - dang 5y ago
    > Brigade the discussion and suddenly they're the troll. Yikes. If such brigading occurs, obviously that trumps the other principle and needs to be dealt with strictly.

by Igelau 5y ago

throwaway122 5y ago

> But debt is not just victor's justice; it can also be a way of punishing winners who weren't supposed to win. > permanent debt peonage > the temerity not only to rise up in rebellion, amidst grand declarations of universal rights and freedoms ...all seem like ideological rhetoric, and barely "facts".

Igelau 5y ago
> the temerity not only to rise up in rebellion, amidst grand declarations of universal rights and freedoms See, I read that in a sarcastic "how dare they" tone. Maybe that's why I don't think it's controversial. > But debt is not just victor's justice; it can also be a way of punishing winners who weren't supposed to win. Are you saying the debt/embargoes weren't meant to be punitive? "Weren't supposed to win" being the prevailing attitude of global economic powers of the time.

dang 5y ago

Yes you can clearly see the contrast between that thread and this one, starting from the root comments, and that's the point: it's possible to have a factual discussion, and it's possible to start a massive flamewar with exactly the same underlying facts. The burden is on commenters to contribute in ways that are likely to lead to the former, not the latter. Of course you can't know for sure what the effects will be, but you can play the odds. These things are fairly predictable. (Btw, I've partly answered your other questions in a different comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27776445 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27776445) Here are some principles that have emerged over the years here, as supports for the kind of discussion we're hoping for: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Intent doesn't communicate itself on the internet, so the burden is on the commenter to disambiguate. - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=disambiguate%20burden%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... The value of a comment is the expected value of the subthread it forms the root of. - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22expected%20value%22%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... Trolling can only be measured by effects, not intent. - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=troll%20effects%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... Scorched earth is not interesting. - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20scorched%20earth&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Igelau 5y ago
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'm afraid I still don't exactly understand where the post erred, because I think it provided valuable context that I was not aware of. OTOH I'm not the mod who had to deal with the mess, so if you say this is where the leak is, I've got to take your word for it. > Trolling can only be measured by effects, not intent. While I hope that principal helps you do your job, I also hope I never encounter it anywhere else. It's a free backdoor to deplatform anyone at anytime. Brigade the discussion and suddenly they're the troll. Yikes.
- dang 5y ago
  > Brigade the discussion and suddenly they're the troll. Yikes. If such brigading occurs, obviously that trumps the other principle and needs to be dealt with strictly.