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If we really wanted this to be a 'public square', how would that combine with a commercial for-profit entity? Unless the government (the people) buys it and fu

If we really wanted this to be a 'public square', how would that combine with a commercial for-profit entity? Unless the government (the people) buys it and funds it through taxes, it doesn't seem to be anywhere near the concept of a public square, just like a newspaper isn't a public square, and the commercial TV and Radio isn't a public square either. Neither are phones. Or billboards. If something becomes ubiquitous enough to be regarded a public square, we either have to make it one, or fix the reason why a commercial for-profit company is regarded as public square in the first place.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
klodolph 5y ago
There’s precedent for exactly that kind of relationship—commercial, for-profit, but legally restrained to do business with anyone without discrimination. It’s called a “common carrier”. Although it was the FCC under Trump that, in 2017, removed common carrier status as a requirement for ISPs. Hard to make the case that ISPs are not common carriers but Twitter is.
Karsteski 5y ago
> fix the reason why a commercial for-profit company is regarded as public square in the first place. This would be ideal. The network effect is strong. As Barrin92's response to my comment stated, anyone can make an alternative site. But all of the value comes from the large networks of people on these sites. I would prefer if such a "public square" site weren't for profit, if I'm going to be honest. Not sure how well that would work, but profit motives introduce too many flaws for such a necessary part of society. OTOH, so do influences from other means...
- smoldesu 5y ago
  > I would prefer if such a "public square" site weren't for profit, if I'm going to be honest. Not sure how well that would work Works perfectly fine. There are plenty of alt-platforms that are based on self-hosted principles like that (Mastodon, Pleroma, Matrix), and all of them are about the most "free" platforms (rather, protocols) you can find.
  - Karsteski 5y ago
    Yea, I do think protocols, not platforms, is the way to go. I especially like the way Mastodon works because you can allow/disallow federation of servers without actually being able to deplatform others
    - kstrauser 5y ago
      As a Mastodon admin, I wholeheartedly agree. I can decide not to connect to a given server, but I can't stop that server from existing. I think this is an excellent design.
- Goety 5y ago
  The problem is no 'public square' can be defended adequately, particularly if everyone can access it. Misrepresentation of the publics interest and voice will continue to occur. There is no solution that I'm aware of.
  - Karsteski 5y ago
    When you say misrepresentation of public interest, what do you mean by that?
    - Goety 5y ago
      I mean when news/politician/ect cherry picks specific and narrow online environments (usually astroturfed) to target or represent a larger group.
- Splognosticus 5y ago
  You're just describing Usenet, which still exists, and is still easily accessible, and has been around for decades on end. Honestly any action to crack down on social media for enforcing their terms of use for their own platform is a solution looking for a problem.
cherryturnover 5y ago
How can you exert your constitutional rights if the government allows companies to create/purchase/monopolize every avenue in which to express your rights? What if you had to pay a toll to utilize corporate paid sidewalks and roads? How could you protest the government? Likewise, the internet infrastructure we have today was created by the government, so it only make sense that the fundamental rights we have protected by the constitution be respected here as well. I don't understand why many liberals defend a corporations freedom to silence speech but get angry when conservatives in the government do it. Six of one, half dozen of the other, it's still speech being silenced by someone more powerful than you. But one being a corporation and one being a politician doesn't change the fact that both limit freedom of speech protected by the constitution.
- ipv6ipv4 5y ago
  “ I don't understand why many liberals defend a corporations freedom to silence speech but get angry when conservatives in the government do it. ” Because it’s a false equivalence that has nothing to do with being “liberal”. The government has the power of coercion. No corporation has that by law. In general, you are conflating the right to free speech with the privilege of easy armchair dissemination of one’s speech. Simply, your right to say anything doesn’t extend to forcing the world to disseminate and listen to what you have to say. Frankly, that extension is very much 1984. In extremis, Trump has the means to publish a newsletter and nobody is stopping him from doing it.
  - cherryturnover 5y ago
    If you have a right to bear arms, but no company in the country's sells a gun, do you have the "right" to bear arms? The answer is: no you don't. Because the government enables these companies to do these things that enroach upon your rights while making people like you believe you still have said rights simply because it's not the government proper doing it. The government and through lobbying can influence and control a lot of what you do without legislation you know.
- not2b 5y ago
  Every avenue? The right has Fox News, Newsmax, OANN, hundreds of local TV stations, and thousands of radio stations running conservative talk radio. They have no trouble getting their message out. On Facebook, most of the people with the highest engagement are right wing.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

klodolph 5y ago

There’s precedent for exactly that kind of relationship—commercial, for-profit, but legally restrained to do business with anyone without discrimination. It’s called a “common carrier”. Although it was the FCC under Trump that, in 2017, removed common carrier status as a requirement for ISPs. Hard to make the case that ISPs are not common carriers but Twitter is.

Karsteski 5y ago

> fix the reason why a commercial for-profit company is regarded as public square in the first place. This would be ideal. The network effect is strong. As Barrin92's response to my comment stated, anyone can make an alternative site. But all of the value comes from the large networks of people on these sites. I would prefer if such a "public square" site weren't for profit, if I'm going to be honest. Not sure how well that would work, but profit motives introduce too many flaws for such a necessary part of society. OTOH, so do influences from other means...

smoldesu 5y ago
> I would prefer if such a "public square" site weren't for profit, if I'm going to be honest. Not sure how well that would work Works perfectly fine. There are plenty of alt-platforms that are based on self-hosted principles like that (Mastodon, Pleroma, Matrix), and all of them are about the most "free" platforms (rather, protocols) you can find.
- Karsteski 5y ago
  Yea, I do think protocols, not platforms, is the way to go. I especially like the way Mastodon works because you can allow/disallow federation of servers without actually being able to deplatform others
  - kstrauser 5y ago
    As a Mastodon admin, I wholeheartedly agree. I can decide not to connect to a given server, but I can't stop that server from existing. I think this is an excellent design.
Goety 5y ago
The problem is no 'public square' can be defended adequately, particularly if everyone can access it. Misrepresentation of the publics interest and voice will continue to occur. There is no solution that I'm aware of.
- Karsteski 5y ago
  When you say misrepresentation of public interest, what do you mean by that?
  - Goety 5y ago
    I mean when news/politician/ect cherry picks specific and narrow online environments (usually astroturfed) to target or represent a larger group.
Splognosticus 5y ago
You're just describing Usenet, which still exists, and is still easily accessible, and has been around for decades on end. Honestly any action to crack down on social media for enforcing their terms of use for their own platform is a solution looking for a problem.

cherryturnover 5y ago

How can you exert your constitutional rights if the government allows companies to create/purchase/monopolize every avenue in which to express your rights? What if you had to pay a toll to utilize corporate paid sidewalks and roads? How could you protest the government? Likewise, the internet infrastructure we have today was created by the government, so it only make sense that the fundamental rights we have protected by the constitution be respected here as well. I don't understand why many liberals defend a corporations freedom to silence speech but get angry when conservatives in the government do it. Six of one, half dozen of the other, it's still speech being silenced by someone more powerful than you. But one being a corporation and one being a politician doesn't change the fact that both limit freedom of speech protected by the constitution.

ipv6ipv4 5y ago
“ I don't understand why many liberals defend a corporations freedom to silence speech but get angry when conservatives in the government do it. ” Because it’s a false equivalence that has nothing to do with being “liberal”. The government has the power of coercion. No corporation has that by law. In general, you are conflating the right to free speech with the privilege of easy armchair dissemination of one’s speech. Simply, your right to say anything doesn’t extend to forcing the world to disseminate and listen to what you have to say. Frankly, that extension is very much 1984. In extremis, Trump has the means to publish a newsletter and nobody is stopping him from doing it.
- cherryturnover 5y ago
  If you have a right to bear arms, but no company in the country's sells a gun, do you have the "right" to bear arms? The answer is: no you don't. Because the government enables these companies to do these things that enroach upon your rights while making people like you believe you still have said rights simply because it's not the government proper doing it. The government and through lobbying can influence and control a lot of what you do without legislation you know.
not2b 5y ago
Every avenue? The right has Fox News, Newsmax, OANN, hundreds of local TV stations, and thousands of radio stations running conservative talk radio. They have no trouble getting their message out. On Facebook, most of the people with the highest engagement are right wing.