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Physical storefronts have over time learned how to optimise their presentation to achieve higher conversion. Initially it was experimentation with layouts, with

Physical storefronts have over time learned how to optimise their presentation to achieve higher conversion. Initially it was experimentation with layouts, with time they added cameras which helped understand customer behaviours. This expertise is commonly outsourced to physical marketing companies who dispatch "merchandisers" to your store to help optimise your layout to fall in line with the layouts they have designed based on the experience they have doing this for many different stores. Some companies would actively seek out target customers, give them cash to conduct surveys for market research. The barrier to retail taking this to an extreme is physical obstruction and money. It takes time to experiment with layouts, you have to pay people for their insight. It isn't practical to have a Moogle which has cameras analyzing most physical storefronts around the world. It's a really complex issue as online retailers do make money from online advertising companies and it often matters to them, but the proliferation of the chosen advertising providers few means that everywhere you go they have a presence listening for your user actions. With that said, these companies don't really want to know you, they just want to ensure they are able to serve relevant ads to someone like you. Collecting personal data is a consequence of there being no other way to group data into uniquely identifying profiles and get those insights on the interests of those profiles. More often, these companies explicitly don't want to know you. Personal information is a massive liability. Attempts to anonymise the data are difficult as you will need some kind of unique primary identifier, but you can infer a lot about an identity from seemingly unimportant things like browser resolution.

ashtonkem 5y ago
They don’t want to know us, but they appear to have very few limits on what they’re willing to do to sell ads. So far we’re basically counting on our interests and theirs being coincidentally similar, I would not bet on that in the long run. Better to handcuff them before they decide that doing something incredibly unseemly is necessary for ad sales.
natmaka 5y ago
> Physical storefronts ((...)) with time they added cameras which helped understand customer behaviours. R. Doisneau, a French photograph, may have in a way be a precursor https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-4572128/?intobjectid=4572128 https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-4572128/?intobjectid=45721... > you can infer a lot about an identity from seemingly unimportant things like browser resolution Oblink: EFF's "Cover tour tracks" https://coveryourtracks.eff.org/ https://coveryourtracks.eff.org/
bordercases 5y ago
> More often, these companies explicitly don't want to know you. Personal information is a massive liability. Data accrued can be sold as an asset to other firms which don't directly compete with the firm that accrued the data, or even compliment the value prospect of that firm. Amazon to US Gov. Search engines to banks. Facebook to Linkedin. Etc. This increases the threat surface that your data creates, beyond whatever firm you think you can trust for having mundane motives.
derbOac 5y ago
One thing I've wrestled with with the rise of online news and its effects on physical newspapers is how much I miss certain things about the physical newspapers. I don't miss the physical format, but I do think the old-school paper newspapers were much more enjoyable to read than most online equivalents. At some point I realized that one major issue is that advertising in many of the paper copies was based around content area: if I went to the performing arts section, for example, it would be filled with ads for performing arts events. I loved this as it was actually useful and informative to me. I went to that section looking for performing arts, and that's what I got. In online news, though, if I go to a performing arts, I don't get informative, unintrusive ads for performing arts events in my area, I get bombarded with random ads for things unrelated to what I'm looking at. Even if, say, earlier in the day I was looking for shoes, I don't want to see ads for shoes if I'm browsing performing arts, I'm interested in performing arts. What you're talking about is a broader observation about identification of individuals per se versus patterns of interests and behaviors. However, I'd argue that a major failure of online advertising (with very important exceptions, including Google, DuckDuckGo, and many other places) is the recognition that what matters for ads is interest at any given moment, and not interests at any other time. I suppose someone might say "but a good ad is something that gives you what you are interested in even if you might not recognize it" but this is really difficult to get right, especially given that my interests in a given moment can shift from minute to minute. If I'm moving from, say, shoe shopping to, say, performing arts, I'm deliberately moving my attention away from the former to the latter. Showing me ads for shoes is something that's specifically going against my current attentional goals. It's like saying "hey Honey, I'm done in the kitchen and am going to go into the garage to work on something" and then having some random stranger show up and pull you back in the kitchen. This seems to be a fundamental screwup with a lot of online advertising: the failure to recognize that I'm functionally a different person from moment to moment, and when I move from one page to another there's a reason for that. Email surveillance is maybe going even further in a worse direction, in that it's even more decontextualized and time-independent. Part of the brilliance of Google search ads, and things like DuckDuckGo, is that they catch you exactly in that moment when you're looking for something on a specific topic. Newspapers and everywhere else needs to take better advantage of that paradigm. Show me what I'm looking for now, don't take a shotgun guess at what I might want based on what I was doing in the past.
Vinnl 5y ago
> these companies don't really want to know you, they just want to ensure they are able to serve relevant ads to someone like you. "Relevant" is their PR-speak, but really it's just whether you're in the desired target audience. If I target an ad that discourages people from voting to vegetarians or people who like Fox News, that ad is not necessarily more relevant to them.

ashtonkem 5y ago

They don’t want to know us, but they appear to have very few limits on what they’re willing to do to sell ads. So far we’re basically counting on our interests and theirs being coincidentally similar, I would not bet on that in the long run. Better to handcuff them before they decide that doing something incredibly unseemly is necessary for ad sales.

natmaka 5y ago

> Physical storefronts ((...)) with time they added cameras which helped understand customer behaviours. R. Doisneau, a French photograph, may have in a way be a precursor https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-4572128/?intobjectid=4572128 https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-4572128/?intobjectid=45721... > you can infer a lot about an identity from seemingly unimportant things like browser resolution Oblink: EFF's "Cover tour tracks" https://coveryourtracks.eff.org/ https://coveryourtracks.eff.org/

bordercases 5y ago

> More often, these companies explicitly don't want to know you. Personal information is a massive liability. Data accrued can be sold as an asset to other firms which don't directly compete with the firm that accrued the data, or even compliment the value prospect of that firm. Amazon to US Gov. Search engines to banks. Facebook to Linkedin. Etc. This increases the threat surface that your data creates, beyond whatever firm you think you can trust for having mundane motives.

derbOac 5y ago

One thing I've wrestled with with the rise of online news and its effects on physical newspapers is how much I miss certain things about the physical newspapers. I don't miss the physical format, but I do think the old-school paper newspapers were much more enjoyable to read than most online equivalents. At some point I realized that one major issue is that advertising in many of the paper copies was based around content area: if I went to the performing arts section, for example, it would be filled with ads for performing arts events. I loved this as it was actually useful and informative to me. I went to that section looking for performing arts, and that's what I got. In online news, though, if I go to a performing arts, I don't get informative, unintrusive ads for performing arts events in my area, I get bombarded with random ads for things unrelated to what I'm looking at. Even if, say, earlier in the day I was looking for shoes, I don't want to see ads for shoes if I'm browsing performing arts, I'm interested in performing arts. What you're talking about is a broader observation about identification of individuals per se versus patterns of interests and behaviors. However, I'd argue that a major failure of online advertising (with very important exceptions, including Google, DuckDuckGo, and many other places) is the recognition that what matters for ads is interest at any given moment, and not interests at any other time. I suppose someone might say "but a good ad is something that gives you what you are interested in even if you might not recognize it" but this is really difficult to get right, especially given that my interests in a given moment can shift from minute to minute. If I'm moving from, say, shoe shopping to, say, performing arts, I'm deliberately moving my attention away from the former to the latter. Showing me ads for shoes is something that's specifically going against my current attentional goals. It's like saying "hey Honey, I'm done in the kitchen and am going to go into the garage to work on something" and then having some random stranger show up and pull you back in the kitchen. This seems to be a fundamental screwup with a lot of online advertising: the failure to recognize that I'm functionally a different person from moment to moment, and when I move from one page to another there's a reason for that. Email surveillance is maybe going even further in a worse direction, in that it's even more decontextualized and time-independent. Part of the brilliance of Google search ads, and things like DuckDuckGo, is that they catch you exactly in that moment when you're looking for something on a specific topic. Newspapers and everywhere else needs to take better advantage of that paradigm. Show me what I'm looking for now, don't take a shotgun guess at what I might want based on what I was doing in the past.

Vinnl 5y ago

> these companies don't really want to know you, they just want to ensure they are able to serve relevant ads to someone like you. "Relevant" is their PR-speak, but really it's just whether you're in the desired target audience. If I target an ad that discourages people from voting to vegetarians or people who like Fox News, that ad is not necessarily more relevant to them.