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Politicians could be treated like students: below a certain attendance rate or failed pop quiz they "fail the class". Lack of attendance or lack of understandi

Politicians could be treated like students: below a certain attendance rate or failed pop quiz they "fail the class". Lack of attendance or lack of understanding of the discussion they vote on greatly undermines the already narrow interpretation of democracy we do have. It means that not only are "the people" in no way in power, most don't even have a representative in any reasonable interpretation. They are physically not in the room to contribute to the decision, or don't understand their own choice. A very small minority of representatives gets to decide for a large majority of people they don't representnt.

dylan604 5y ago
"We the people" has been replaced by "We the lobbyists" or extending to "We the corporations".
- sundvor 5y ago
  Not sure why you're getting down voted, that's how it works in Australia. Just look at how we're still embracing coal, and introducing mileage tax of EVs to repel their takeup. There's a big network of old chummies and political donations from big fossil behind that.
  - brutusborn 5y ago
    What's the mileage tax you mention?
    - sundvor 5y ago
      It's a newly introduced km fee on all road usage for EVs only, not for ICEVs, in Victoria. https://www.caradvice.com.au/955801/victorias-ev-user-tax-is-a-lost-opportunity/#:~:text=In%20case%20you%20haven%27t,hit%20with%202.0c%2Fkm https://www.caradvice.com.au/955801/victorias-ev-user-tax-is.... https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-news/victoria-passes-ev-tax-effective-july-1-2021 https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-news/victoria-passes-ev-tax-... There's a $3k limited incentive that was used to distract from the fundamental issues behind taxing EV mileage. It doesn't cover long range cars as they're outside the price bracket. The reasoning was that there's no fuel excise being collected, yet the fuel tax isn't being used to cover roads - normal tax payments are. Also it doesn't care that ICEVs currently aren't paying for environmental emissions, when they should. Actually having said all that I should just have pasted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLflYkgnNBY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLflYkgnNBY , which explains it all so much better. (Fair warning: Australian language).
      - chris_wot 5y ago
        Same thing is being proposed for NSW. Pathetic really.
        dylan604 5y ago
        Why is it pathetic? As other commenters have stated, the fuel taxes have supposedly been about offsetting infrastructure costs of the roads and not a pollution control (at least in US). All cars need use of the roads whether EV or ICE powered. Personally, I'd rather they actually charged you by requiring odometer readings instead of a generic tax on utilitly fees. Maybe collect that info on your annual inspection vs the over the air telemetry??
        ajmadesc 5y ago
        Here is a table of vehicle damage levels by size. https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/ https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weigh...
        sundvor 5y ago
        "Fat man on freakishly heavy bicycle" => lol, thanks, I'm saving this for next time I hear "pay your reggo". (I _am_ paying on my ICEV, which I'm going to get carbon offsets for soon).
        photojosh 5y ago
        The last I can find on the proposal for NSW to do the same is from April [0] yet in June they introduced EV purchases [1] with no mention of a mileage tax. I find it more than a tad ironic that the NSW Liberal (conservative) state government has the best EV incentives while the Victorian Labor ("progressive") has the worst, out of our two most populous states. [0] https://thedriven.io/2021/04/29/perrottet-flags-holistic-approach-to-electric-vehicle-road-tax-in-nsw/ https://thedriven.io/2021/04/29/perrottet-flags-holistic-app... [1] https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/topics/climate-change/net-zero-plan/electric-vehicle-strategy https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/topics/climate-change/net...
  - vanattab 5y ago
    I support mileage taxes on Electric vehicles. The whole idea of the gas tax (at least in the US) was a way approximately tax road usage to fund infrastructure. Why should predominantly well off ev owners get out of paying for road maintenance? If we want to discourage carbon emissions just tax carbon.
    - mullingitover 5y ago
      > Why should predominantly well off ev owners get out of paying for road maintenance? Great point. We should raise gas taxes to subsidize electric vehicles for people with low incomes. If enough people switch to electric to the point that this revenue starts seriously dropping, great: keep turning up the heat with more gasoline taxes until polluting vehicles are completely gone. The "it's not fair" trope about road maintenance for EVs isn't super compelling - the vast majority of road damage is from heavy vehicles like semis. Road damage increases with the cube of mass. Once we've put gasoline vehicles in the history books forever we can work on a mass*acceleration tax.
    - sundvor 5y ago
      In Australia, roads are paid for by our taxes - not the fuel excise. I think I actually support a KM usage tax, but it'd have to be for all kinds of cars - not just the green kind. CO2/PM25 emissions tax should be on top of that. And: To buy an EV in Australia would be considerable stretch on my own budget, and I'd need every single dollar left after it. I'm actually needing a 2nd car now, and am loath to buy another ICEV.
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  Sadly, I see this as a natural consequence of how much influence individuals have versus how much influence organizations with money have. I, as a concerned citizen, have nothing compared to a group with a revenue stream orders of magnitude above my own. Even if I were to become a full time activist, the number of people I can reach is tiny compared to an institution with an advertising budget and a consultancy.
  - IngoBlechschmid 5y ago
    I get your point, and it is valid, but also observe that there have been numerous successful social movements in the near and longer past! They had to fight against vastly more powerful systems and still succeeded in the end. As activists, we can obtain substantial press coverage even without an advertising budget, by carrying out well-thought-out direct actions and acts of civil disobedience, and we can offer direct resistance (for instance, when we build tree houses to occupy forests which are on the clearing list of governments or the fossil fuel industry, like we successfully did with the Hambach Forest in Germany).
    - BitwiseFool 5y ago
      I know what you mean. I just feel demoralized and beaten down.
clairity 5y ago
i'd be down for giving tests to legislators of all the bills they're voting on for the day, with questions designed by legislative analysts of all stripes. that way, potential consequences are tested for, not just the contents.
- trothamel 5y ago
  The vast majority of politics is about things reasonable people disagree on. When you have an elections bills that one side considers to expand access to voting, while the other side considers it to enable voting fraud, how would you write a test?
  - clairity 5y ago
    ah, the dichotomy trap again. we've really got to get past "two sides". what's best for people? for society? if voting is expanded, to who? why? how? what kind of fraud could it enable? how much? how likely? it's not that hard.
qwytw 5y ago
And what's the result of "failing"? A popularly elected representative gets automatically removed from the house because he failed some arbitrary attendance threshold or a test which is going to biased by whomever designed/approved it? I don't think there is an easy way out of this, the "quality" of politicians can only improve if the majority of the people voting for them actually started caring about the actual work they do when elected (instead of basing their decisions entirely on the party they represent, their public image etc.)
- buran77 5y ago
  A popularly elected representative who does not represent has failed their mandate. The "contract" of democracy is (at least morally) "vote for representation". Without the representation that person is no more entitled to be there than any other random person if you ask me. At the very least in the next election cycle the people will know who represents them and how.
  - qwytw 5y ago
    Tell that to Sinn Fein MPs who were elected to the British parliament in all the elections since 1997 but any of whom is yet to attend a single session. Abstaining from participating in parliament when you're elected or participating in unconstructive ways (i.e. by being disruptive etc.) is a legitimate behaviour. As long as you're transparent about your intentions to behave so to your voters, removing such MPs without an election would be authoritarian. If he/she is not transparent about this and this is/becomes a widespread problem it's preferable to decrease the duration of office terms or allow recall elections instead of instituting arbitrary rules (which will have to be approved by the ruling party/coalition and therefore will likely be designed in such a would which would favour them over opposition parties).

dylan604 5y ago

"We the people" has been replaced by "We the lobbyists" or extending to "We the corporations".

sundvor 5y ago
Not sure why you're getting down voted, that's how it works in Australia. Just look at how we're still embracing coal, and introducing mileage tax of EVs to repel their takeup. There's a big network of old chummies and political donations from big fossil behind that.
- brutusborn 5y ago
  What's the mileage tax you mention?
  - sundvor 5y ago
    It's a newly introduced km fee on all road usage for EVs only, not for ICEVs, in Victoria. https://www.caradvice.com.au/955801/victorias-ev-user-tax-is-a-lost-opportunity/#:~:text=In%20case%20you%20haven%27t,hit%20with%202.0c%2Fkm https://www.caradvice.com.au/955801/victorias-ev-user-tax-is.... https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-news/victoria-passes-ev-tax-effective-july-1-2021 https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-news/victoria-passes-ev-tax-... There's a $3k limited incentive that was used to distract from the fundamental issues behind taxing EV mileage. It doesn't cover long range cars as they're outside the price bracket. The reasoning was that there's no fuel excise being collected, yet the fuel tax isn't being used to cover roads - normal tax payments are. Also it doesn't care that ICEVs currently aren't paying for environmental emissions, when they should. Actually having said all that I should just have pasted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLflYkgnNBY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLflYkgnNBY , which explains it all so much better. (Fair warning: Australian language).
    - chris_wot 5y ago
      Same thing is being proposed for NSW. Pathetic really.
      - dylan604 5y ago
        Why is it pathetic? As other commenters have stated, the fuel taxes have supposedly been about offsetting infrastructure costs of the roads and not a pollution control (at least in US). All cars need use of the roads whether EV or ICE powered. Personally, I'd rather they actually charged you by requiring odometer readings instead of a generic tax on utilitly fees. Maybe collect that info on your annual inspection vs the over the air telemetry??
        ajmadesc 5y ago
        Here is a table of vehicle damage levels by size. https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weight-vs-road-damage-levels/ https://streets.mn/2016/07/07/chart-of-the-day-vehicle-weigh...
        sundvor 5y ago
        "Fat man on freakishly heavy bicycle" => lol, thanks, I'm saving this for next time I hear "pay your reggo". (I _am_ paying on my ICEV, which I'm going to get carbon offsets for soon).
      - photojosh 5y ago
        The last I can find on the proposal for NSW to do the same is from April [0] yet in June they introduced EV purchases [1] with no mention of a mileage tax. I find it more than a tad ironic that the NSW Liberal (conservative) state government has the best EV incentives while the Victorian Labor ("progressive") has the worst, out of our two most populous states. [0] https://thedriven.io/2021/04/29/perrottet-flags-holistic-approach-to-electric-vehicle-road-tax-in-nsw/ https://thedriven.io/2021/04/29/perrottet-flags-holistic-app... [1] https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/topics/climate-change/net-zero-plan/electric-vehicle-strategy https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/topics/climate-change/net...
- vanattab 5y ago
  I support mileage taxes on Electric vehicles. The whole idea of the gas tax (at least in the US) was a way approximately tax road usage to fund infrastructure. Why should predominantly well off ev owners get out of paying for road maintenance? If we want to discourage carbon emissions just tax carbon.
  - mullingitover 5y ago
    > Why should predominantly well off ev owners get out of paying for road maintenance? Great point. We should raise gas taxes to subsidize electric vehicles for people with low incomes. If enough people switch to electric to the point that this revenue starts seriously dropping, great: keep turning up the heat with more gasoline taxes until polluting vehicles are completely gone. The "it's not fair" trope about road maintenance for EVs isn't super compelling - the vast majority of road damage is from heavy vehicles like semis. Road damage increases with the cube of mass. Once we've put gasoline vehicles in the history books forever we can work on a mass*acceleration tax.
  - sundvor 5y ago
    In Australia, roads are paid for by our taxes - not the fuel excise. I think I actually support a KM usage tax, but it'd have to be for all kinds of cars - not just the green kind. CO2/PM25 emissions tax should be on top of that. And: To buy an EV in Australia would be considerable stretch on my own budget, and I'd need every single dollar left after it. I'm actually needing a 2nd car now, and am loath to buy another ICEV.
BitwiseFool 5y ago
Sadly, I see this as a natural consequence of how much influence individuals have versus how much influence organizations with money have. I, as a concerned citizen, have nothing compared to a group with a revenue stream orders of magnitude above my own. Even if I were to become a full time activist, the number of people I can reach is tiny compared to an institution with an advertising budget and a consultancy.
- IngoBlechschmid 5y ago
  I get your point, and it is valid, but also observe that there have been numerous successful social movements in the near and longer past! They had to fight against vastly more powerful systems and still succeeded in the end. As activists, we can obtain substantial press coverage even without an advertising budget, by carrying out well-thought-out direct actions and acts of civil disobedience, and we can offer direct resistance (for instance, when we build tree houses to occupy forests which are on the clearing list of governments or the fossil fuel industry, like we successfully did with the Hambach Forest in Germany).
  - BitwiseFool 5y ago
    I know what you mean. I just feel demoralized and beaten down.

clairity 5y ago

i'd be down for giving tests to legislators of all the bills they're voting on for the day, with questions designed by legislative analysts of all stripes. that way, potential consequences are tested for, not just the contents.

trothamel 5y ago
The vast majority of politics is about things reasonable people disagree on. When you have an elections bills that one side considers to expand access to voting, while the other side considers it to enable voting fraud, how would you write a test?
- clairity 5y ago
  ah, the dichotomy trap again. we've really got to get past "two sides". what's best for people? for society? if voting is expanded, to who? why? how? what kind of fraud could it enable? how much? how likely? it's not that hard.

qwytw 5y ago

And what's the result of "failing"? A popularly elected representative gets automatically removed from the house because he failed some arbitrary attendance threshold or a test which is going to biased by whomever designed/approved it? I don't think there is an easy way out of this, the "quality" of politicians can only improve if the majority of the people voting for them actually started caring about the actual work they do when elected (instead of basing their decisions entirely on the party they represent, their public image etc.)

buran77 5y ago
A popularly elected representative who does not represent has failed their mandate. The "contract" of democracy is (at least morally) "vote for representation". Without the representation that person is no more entitled to be there than any other random person if you ask me. At the very least in the next election cycle the people will know who represents them and how.
- qwytw 5y ago
  Tell that to Sinn Fein MPs who were elected to the British parliament in all the elections since 1997 but any of whom is yet to attend a single session. Abstaining from participating in parliament when you're elected or participating in unconstructive ways (i.e. by being disruptive etc.) is a legitimate behaviour. As long as you're transparent about your intentions to behave so to your voters, removing such MPs without an election would be authoritarian. If he/she is not transparent about this and this is/becomes a widespread problem it's preferable to decrease the duration of office terms or allow recall elections instead of instituting arbitrary rules (which will have to be approved by the ruling party/coalition and therefore will likely be designed in such a would which would favour them over opposition parties).