4 ms·

The upper and middle castes can be pragmatic about the symptoms when the disease does not touch them. Whether SF or NYC, inequality and racial segregation have

The upper and middle castes can be pragmatic about the symptoms when the disease does not touch them. Whether SF or NYC, inequality and racial segregation have increased, corporations build glass and steel temples of capitalism, billionaires treat the world as their lab and playground, and even the middle class hoards the world's production and labor resources from the comfort of their couches, advantages all accumulated over centuries of exploitation, colonization, slavery, genocide and ecological debt that the poor and future generations will have to pay back. But to keep things simple, let's just consider the "anarchy" in light of where SF and NYC (shining lights on the hill of liberalism) rank in the dimension of racial segregation: - https://gothamist.com/news/new-yorks-schools-are-still-the-most-segregated-in-the-nation-report https://gothamist.com/news/new-yorks-schools-are-still-the-m... - https://belonging.berkeley.edu/most-least-segregated-cities https://belonging.berkeley.edu/most-least-segregated-cities - https://belonging.berkeley.edu/roots-structural-racism https://belonging.berkeley.edu/roots-structural-racism - Most major metropolitan areas have become more racially segregated, study shows: https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/21/us/housing-segregation-cities-berkeley-study/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/21/us/housing-segregation-cities...

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> let's just consider the "anarchy" in light of where SF and NYC (shining lights on the hill of liberalism) rank in the dimension of racial segregation Sorry, is the argument that public safety can’t exist in a desegregated city?
- eevilspock 5y ago
  you read me backwards. if anything, the upper castes rely on segregation to feel safer, thereby making things worse.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Is there evidence that supports this against the more likely causes, e.g., rich people just want to live around other rich people, people of any SES prefer to live around those who are culturally similar (and culture correlates with race in America), etc? In other words, I don’t think we have to resort to mustache-twirling caricatures to explain an increase in racial segregation.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    Defending the current state of San Francisco on the basis of not being as racially segregated on one measure as New York City sort of implies that it’s one or the other. If that’s not the implication, it’s irrelevant.
    - eevilspock 5y ago
      you really misread me. I'm not defending either city. They are both incredibly segregated, unjust and oppressive to the lower castes.
throwaway894345 5y ago
I agree with you that inequality and “socialism for the rich” are real problems, but I don’t think they adequately explain the 5-year crime surge across the country, specifically inequality didn’t increase commensurate with this surge in the same time period. Most likely this is the result of our flat-footed “defund the police!” rhetoric that manifest as either explicit de-policing policies or else as unofficial pressure on police to reduce preventative policing practices like routine stops. I don’t think anyone disputes this correlation even if they don’t subscribe to the causation hypothesis. With respect to racial segregation, I know ordinary liberals and moderates are generally on board with increased integration but I’m not sure how that will hit the I-oppose-race-mixing-but-in-a-woke-way crowd, particularly in SF?
- AlexTWithBeard 5y ago
  It keeps me puzzled: why inequality per se is a culprit? Poverty? I would get it. But how the fact that someone is richer than you justifies shoplifting is beyond my understanding.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    I can’t speak for anyone besides myself, but growing inequality implies more poverty (more poor people, poor people get poorer, etc). So if poverty begets crime and (growing) inequality begets poverty, then inequality begets crime. There may also be other vectors through which inequality begets crime as well. Maybe it’s possible to have a kind of inequality where the rich get richer without the poor getting poorer (although I suspect it would just mean that the purchasing power of a dollar falls even though the poor have as many dollars as they had before) but in practice in America I think we have the kind of inequality where the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer (and more numerous).
    - AlexTWithBeard 5y ago
      According to [1] the official poverty rate in 2019 was 10.5 percent, down 1.3 percentage points from 11.8 percent in 2018. [1] https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2020/demo/p60-270.html https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2020/demo/p60-27...
bradleyjg 5y ago
You guys would be more convincing if you were willing to acknowledge that progress has been made. Anyone that has studied history, or even just been alive for a few decades, knows that this is not the worst time ever. The constant catastrophizing rhetoric just discredits you.
- jfengel 5y ago
  And you'd be more convincing if you hadn't just said, "You didn't phrase your argument in a way that suited me, therefore I am going to ignore the problem you just raised." It's not the worst time ever. There, I said it. Happy? Now, are you going to say "'Not the worst time ever' can still be pretty bad and in need of fixing"?
  - bradleyjg 5y ago
    Not the worst time ever' can still be pretty bad and in need of fixing Who do you think has been making all the progress to get us to not the worst time ever? You’re welcome, by the way.
    - jfengel 5y ago
      I'm pretty sure it's not the people who say "I've done enough and you don't get any more".

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> let's just consider the "anarchy" in light of where SF and NYC (shining lights on the hill of liberalism) rank in the dimension of racial segregation Sorry, is the argument that public safety can’t exist in a desegregated city?

eevilspock 5y ago
you read me backwards. if anything, the upper castes rely on segregation to feel safer, thereby making things worse.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Is there evidence that supports this against the more likely causes, e.g., rich people just want to live around other rich people, people of any SES prefer to live around those who are culturally similar (and culture correlates with race in America), etc? In other words, I don’t think we have to resort to mustache-twirling caricatures to explain an increase in racial segregation.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  Defending the current state of San Francisco on the basis of not being as racially segregated on one measure as New York City sort of implies that it’s one or the other. If that’s not the implication, it’s irrelevant.
  - eevilspock 5y ago
    you really misread me. I'm not defending either city. They are both incredibly segregated, unjust and oppressive to the lower castes.

throwaway894345 5y ago

I agree with you that inequality and “socialism for the rich” are real problems, but I don’t think they adequately explain the 5-year crime surge across the country, specifically inequality didn’t increase commensurate with this surge in the same time period. Most likely this is the result of our flat-footed “defund the police!” rhetoric that manifest as either explicit de-policing policies or else as unofficial pressure on police to reduce preventative policing practices like routine stops. I don’t think anyone disputes this correlation even if they don’t subscribe to the causation hypothesis. With respect to racial segregation, I know ordinary liberals and moderates are generally on board with increased integration but I’m not sure how that will hit the I-oppose-race-mixing-but-in-a-woke-way crowd, particularly in SF?

AlexTWithBeard 5y ago
It keeps me puzzled: why inequality per se is a culprit? Poverty? I would get it. But how the fact that someone is richer than you justifies shoplifting is beyond my understanding.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  I can’t speak for anyone besides myself, but growing inequality implies more poverty (more poor people, poor people get poorer, etc). So if poverty begets crime and (growing) inequality begets poverty, then inequality begets crime. There may also be other vectors through which inequality begets crime as well. Maybe it’s possible to have a kind of inequality where the rich get richer without the poor getting poorer (although I suspect it would just mean that the purchasing power of a dollar falls even though the poor have as many dollars as they had before) but in practice in America I think we have the kind of inequality where the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer (and more numerous).
  - AlexTWithBeard 5y ago
    According to [1] the official poverty rate in 2019 was 10.5 percent, down 1.3 percentage points from 11.8 percent in 2018. [1] https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2020/demo/p60-270.html https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2020/demo/p60-27...

bradleyjg 5y ago

You guys would be more convincing if you were willing to acknowledge that progress has been made. Anyone that has studied history, or even just been alive for a few decades, knows that this is not the worst time ever. The constant catastrophizing rhetoric just discredits you.

jfengel 5y ago
And you'd be more convincing if you hadn't just said, "You didn't phrase your argument in a way that suited me, therefore I am going to ignore the problem you just raised." It's not the worst time ever. There, I said it. Happy? Now, are you going to say "'Not the worst time ever' can still be pretty bad and in need of fixing"?
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  Not the worst time ever' can still be pretty bad and in need of fixing Who do you think has been making all the progress to get us to not the worst time ever? You’re welcome, by the way.
  - jfengel 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure it's not the people who say "I've done enough and you don't get any more".