5 ms·

This is admittedly regional chauvinism, but I think New Yorkers are just fundamentally more pragmatic. Maybe it comes from everyone taking the subway. I don’t k

This is admittedly regional chauvinism, but I think New Yorkers are just fundamentally more pragmatic. Maybe it comes from everyone taking the subway. I don’t know, but we just seem less likely to drive an ideology right over a cliff. Up to the edge, maybe, but not over.

cm2187 5y ago
I don't know that it is the case. The front runner for NY DA intends to not prosecute minor offenses [1] [1] https://www.alvinbragg.com/plans https://www.alvinbragg.com/plans
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  The next mayor is an ex-cop though. The woman that came in second explicitly rejected “defund the police”.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > front runner for NY DA intends to not prosecute minor offenses Bragg is a far cry from Boudin. He is, as a former prosecutor, leading in a field that had Boudinesque candidates, e.g. those with zero prosecutorial experience. I would actually highlight him as an example of the sort of compromise that seems lacking in San Francisco.
- thereare5lights 5y ago
  If you actually look at the list he plans to not prosecute for https://www.alvinbragg.com/declination https://www.alvinbragg.com/declination they make sense. Contrast that with one of Boudin's policies https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/12/24/da-critics-say-anti-drug-tenderloin-initiative-is-being-used-to-dodge-sanctuary-city-laws-deport-undocumented-immigrants/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/12/24/da-critics-say-anti-d... and then think about the drug abuse problem that is prevalent in SF.
lotsofpulp 5y ago
Since the root causes are not, and will not be addressed, I predict the pendulum will simply swing too far in both directions. The root cause being the federal laws governing involuntary committal for mental healthcare and lack of federal resources for mental healthcare which is super pricy for obvious reasons. In addition are widening income/wealth gap and the temperate climates exacerbate the issue in some places more than others. So the solution at the state and city levels is to use police to push people that are likelier to cause problems around so they are not comfortable being around, and incarcerating them and keeping them in the system for various offenses. Then the police and politicians get heat for being prejudiced or biased or unfair, and they relax the rules, and then the problems return, and people will complain about thefts and property crime and etc until it gets bad enough that there is once again political will for a crackdown, and rinse repeat. Note that I am not saying there are not legitimate prejudices and biases that need to be addressed in the police/judicial system, nor that society should let minor offenses go and make police think about the political ramifications of every interaction they have.
- prepend 5y ago
  > The root cause being the federal laws governing involuntary committal for mental healthcare and lack of federal resources for mental healthcare which is super pricy for obvious reasons. I do think this is the root cause of the shoplifting examples in the article. Stealing handbags from Niemen Marcus is, I think, unrelated to mental health issues.
  - mc32 5y ago
    Correct. These people know that you don’t do that in DC without consequences, so they go up to SF.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    I know, but that is the pendulum swinging too far trying to correct for perceived prejudices by the police/judicial system. Which I think are rooted in expecting police to be able to deal with mental health issues as if they have the tools to address the crisis.
eevilspock 5y ago
The upper and middle castes can be pragmatic about the symptoms when the disease does not touch them. Whether SF or NYC, inequality and racial segregation have increased, corporations build glass and steel temples of capitalism, billionaires treat the world as their lab and playground, and even the middle class hoards the world's production and labor resources from the comfort of their couches, advantages all accumulated over centuries of exploitation, colonization, slavery, genocide and ecological debt that the poor and future generations will have to pay back. But to keep things simple, let's just consider the "anarchy" in light of where SF and NYC (shining lights on the hill of liberalism) rank in the dimension of racial segregation: - https://gothamist.com/news/new-yorks-schools-are-still-the-most-segregated-in-the-nation-report https://gothamist.com/news/new-yorks-schools-are-still-the-m... - https://belonging.berkeley.edu/most-least-segregated-cities https://belonging.berkeley.edu/most-least-segregated-cities - https://belonging.berkeley.edu/roots-structural-racism https://belonging.berkeley.edu/roots-structural-racism - Most major metropolitan areas have become more racially segregated, study shows: https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/21/us/housing-segregation-cities-berkeley-study/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/21/us/housing-segregation-cities...
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > let's just consider the "anarchy" in light of where SF and NYC (shining lights on the hill of liberalism) rank in the dimension of racial segregation Sorry, is the argument that public safety can’t exist in a desegregated city?
  - eevilspock 5y ago
    you read me backwards. if anything, the upper castes rely on segregation to feel safer, thereby making things worse.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      Is there evidence that supports this against the more likely causes, e.g., rich people just want to live around other rich people, people of any SES prefer to live around those who are culturally similar (and culture correlates with race in America), etc? In other words, I don’t think we have to resort to mustache-twirling caricatures to explain an increase in racial segregation.
newsclues 5y ago
Cold winters force a level of realism that a Mediterranean climate does not.

cm2187 5y ago

I don't know that it is the case. The front runner for NY DA intends to not prosecute minor offenses [1] [1] https://www.alvinbragg.com/plans https://www.alvinbragg.com/plans

bradleyjg 5y ago
The next mayor is an ex-cop though. The woman that came in second explicitly rejected “defund the police”.
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> front runner for NY DA intends to not prosecute minor offenses Bragg is a far cry from Boudin. He is, as a former prosecutor, leading in a field that had Boudinesque candidates, e.g. those with zero prosecutorial experience. I would actually highlight him as an example of the sort of compromise that seems lacking in San Francisco.
thereare5lights 5y ago
If you actually look at the list he plans to not prosecute for https://www.alvinbragg.com/declination https://www.alvinbragg.com/declination they make sense. Contrast that with one of Boudin's policies https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/12/24/da-critics-say-anti-drug-tenderloin-initiative-is-being-used-to-dodge-sanctuary-city-laws-deport-undocumented-immigrants/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/12/24/da-critics-say-anti-d... and then think about the drug abuse problem that is prevalent in SF.

lotsofpulp 5y ago

Since the root causes are not, and will not be addressed, I predict the pendulum will simply swing too far in both directions. The root cause being the federal laws governing involuntary committal for mental healthcare and lack of federal resources for mental healthcare which is super pricy for obvious reasons. In addition are widening income/wealth gap and the temperate climates exacerbate the issue in some places more than others. So the solution at the state and city levels is to use police to push people that are likelier to cause problems around so they are not comfortable being around, and incarcerating them and keeping them in the system for various offenses. Then the police and politicians get heat for being prejudiced or biased or unfair, and they relax the rules, and then the problems return, and people will complain about thefts and property crime and etc until it gets bad enough that there is once again political will for a crackdown, and rinse repeat. Note that I am not saying there are not legitimate prejudices and biases that need to be addressed in the police/judicial system, nor that society should let minor offenses go and make police think about the political ramifications of every interaction they have.

prepend 5y ago
> The root cause being the federal laws governing involuntary committal for mental healthcare and lack of federal resources for mental healthcare which is super pricy for obvious reasons. I do think this is the root cause of the shoplifting examples in the article. Stealing handbags from Niemen Marcus is, I think, unrelated to mental health issues.
- mc32 5y ago
  Correct. These people know that you don’t do that in DC without consequences, so they go up to SF.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  I know, but that is the pendulum swinging too far trying to correct for perceived prejudices by the police/judicial system. Which I think are rooted in expecting police to be able to deal with mental health issues as if they have the tools to address the crisis.

eevilspock 5y ago

The upper and middle castes can be pragmatic about the symptoms when the disease does not touch them. Whether SF or NYC, inequality and racial segregation have increased, corporations build glass and steel temples of capitalism, billionaires treat the world as their lab and playground, and even the middle class hoards the world's production and labor resources from the comfort of their couches, advantages all accumulated over centuries of exploitation, colonization, slavery, genocide and ecological debt that the poor and future generations will have to pay back. But to keep things simple, let's just consider the "anarchy" in light of where SF and NYC (shining lights on the hill of liberalism) rank in the dimension of racial segregation: - https://gothamist.com/news/new-yorks-schools-are-still-the-most-segregated-in-the-nation-report https://gothamist.com/news/new-yorks-schools-are-still-the-m... - https://belonging.berkeley.edu/most-least-segregated-cities https://belonging.berkeley.edu/most-least-segregated-cities - https://belonging.berkeley.edu/roots-structural-racism https://belonging.berkeley.edu/roots-structural-racism - Most major metropolitan areas have become more racially segregated, study shows: https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/21/us/housing-segregation-cities-berkeley-study/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/21/us/housing-segregation-cities...

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> let's just consider the "anarchy" in light of where SF and NYC (shining lights on the hill of liberalism) rank in the dimension of racial segregation Sorry, is the argument that public safety can’t exist in a desegregated city?
- eevilspock 5y ago
  you read me backwards. if anything, the upper castes rely on segregation to feel safer, thereby making things worse.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Is there evidence that supports this against the more likely causes, e.g., rich people just want to live around other rich people, people of any SES prefer to live around those who are culturally similar (and culture correlates with race in America), etc? In other words, I don’t think we have to resort to mustache-twirling caricatures to explain an increase in racial segregation.

newsclues 5y ago

Cold winters force a level of realism that a Mediterranean climate does not.