5 ms·

Most people are more likely to end up in prison in the USA than they are in China

by ca01an 5y ago

MattGaiser 5y ago
But not because some government official suddenly decided they should. In the USA, the rules are known well in advance. There might be questionable rules, but POTUS cannot decree a rule into existence and put a bag over your head an hour later.
- CJefferson 5y ago
  People who spent years in Guantanamo Bay Naval Base (or are still there, after 20 years, without being charged) might disagree with you on that.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    > In the USA What the US does to non-citizens outside the USA is a messy area. Inside the USA? The rules are far more clear.
    - Jochim 5y ago
      On an individual basis the rules are often vague and selectively enforced. As a collective institution there was the whole Edward Snowden thing where he pointed out that the NSA had definitely not been following those rules and no one who knew what they were doing seemed particularly keen on stopping them.
      - InspiredIdiot 5y ago
        That is a big problem but kindof a separate issue. He may have been targeted because he was critical of the government but it's really hard to argue that he didn't do anything against the law. Maybe he should have whistleblower protection but his case isn't as simple as persecution solely for being critical of the government which is what this thread seems to be about.
        Jochim 5y ago
        My point wasn't the treatment of Snowden but rather that the claim that: > Inside the USA? The rules are far more clear. Is false. The NSA was/is carrying out a mass spying operation over a number of years and involving hundreds of people that directly contravenes those rules.
    - thebooktocome 5y ago
      > The rules are far more clear. Can you clarify this? As far as I'm aware, the US govt can dispute anyone's citizenship without recourse, even if you're holding e.g., a valid passport. From 2016: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/12/22/504031635/you-say-you-re-an-american-but-what-if-you-had-to-prove-it-or-be-deported https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/12/22/504031635... As far as I know, nothing in this article has changed.
      - TMWNN 5y ago
        >Can you clarify this? As far as I'm aware, the US govt can dispute anyone's citizenship without recourse, even if you're holding e.g., a valid passport. Your cite does not support your claim. If Palma had ever had a US passport (expired or not), his situation would never have occurred in the first place.
- arthur_sav 5y ago
  Of course not. They'll just fabricate lies, label you a terrorist or a "Russian spy" and put you in prison.
- jwr 5y ago
  > But not because some government official suddenly decided they should You mean like this guy, for example? https://www.npr.org/2020/12/11/945565473/u-s-clears-for-release-long-time-guantanamo-inmate-never-charged-with-a-crime?t=1625650954049 https://www.npr.org/2020/12/11/945565473/u-s-clears-for-rele... Or the (by now, likely in the thousands) people killed by US drone attacks? I don't want to play the whataboutism card, but let's not pretend that the US is somehow exceptional here. In fact, I'd consider it one of the more troubling countries, with the kindappings, Guantanamo, and the "grey area" on the borders, where your constitutional rights do not apply. The world is not a nice place, and the US is no exception, unfortunately.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    The USA is exceptional in that that stuff does not happen to citizens within its borders.
    - Aeolos 5y ago
      Is that really the case? https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 "Police violence is a leading cause of death for young men in the United States. Over the life course, about 1 in every 1,000 black men can expect to be killed by police." https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56834733 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56834733 According to this ^, the police in the US is 3.5x more likely to kill civilians compared to other developed nations. (It would be interesting to find a world-wide comparison here.)
      - Leparamour 5y ago
        >"Police violence is a leading cause of death for young men in the United States. Over the life course, about 1 in every 1,000 black men can expect to be killed by police." These soundbytes usually (intentionally) omit half of the story. For example, how many police officers are being killed in encounters with black men? And how many less lethal (for black men) encounters would there be with black men not attacking officers or third persons but actually complying with police orders? The greatest danger to a black person's life only second to coronary diseases is another black person. It's these kind of questions which grievance studies activists and journalists never (dare to) ask.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- orbifold 5y ago
  If you piss off the US enough you will become suicidal in a Spanish prison.
dmos62 5y ago
We don't have reliable prison and sentencing data for China.
danielrpa 5y ago
It's incredible how fast people on HN jump to false equivalencies when comparing US and China. The mere fact you can criticize the government in this forum without the fear of being brought in for questioning should give you some hints on how both systems compare. Criticize the US as much as you want (after all, you can do it), and the US government DOES deserve a good deal of criticism, but saying that the countries are somehow equivalent in the consequences for anti-state speech is laughable.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Most people are more likely to end up in prison in the USA than they are in China

by ca01an 5y ago

Most people are more likely to end up in prison in the USA than they are in China

But not because some government official suddenly decided they should. In the USA, the rules are known well in advance. There might be questionable rules, but POTUS cannot decree a rule into existence and put a bag over your head an hour later.

CJefferson 5y ago
People who spent years in Guantanamo Bay Naval Base (or are still there, after 20 years, without being charged) might disagree with you on that.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  > In the USA What the US does to non-citizens outside the USA is a messy area. Inside the USA? The rules are far more clear.
  - Jochim 5y ago
    On an individual basis the rules are often vague and selectively enforced. As a collective institution there was the whole Edward Snowden thing where he pointed out that the NSA had definitely not been following those rules and no one who knew what they were doing seemed particularly keen on stopping them.
    - InspiredIdiot 5y ago
      That is a big problem but kindof a separate issue. He may have been targeted because he was critical of the government but it's really hard to argue that he didn't do anything against the law. Maybe he should have whistleblower protection but his case isn't as simple as persecution solely for being critical of the government which is what this thread seems to be about.
      - Jochim 5y ago
        My point wasn't the treatment of Snowden but rather that the claim that: > Inside the USA? The rules are far more clear. Is false. The NSA was/is carrying out a mass spying operation over a number of years and involving hundreds of people that directly contravenes those rules.
  - thebooktocome 5y ago
    > The rules are far more clear. Can you clarify this? As far as I'm aware, the US govt can dispute anyone's citizenship without recourse, even if you're holding e.g., a valid passport. From 2016: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/12/22/504031635/you-say-you-re-an-american-but-what-if-you-had-to-prove-it-or-be-deported https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/12/22/504031635... As far as I know, nothing in this article has changed.
    - TMWNN 5y ago
      >Can you clarify this? As far as I'm aware, the US govt can dispute anyone's citizenship without recourse, even if you're holding e.g., a valid passport. Your cite does not support your claim. If Palma had ever had a US passport (expired or not), his situation would never have occurred in the first place.
arthur_sav 5y ago
Of course not. They'll just fabricate lies, label you a terrorist or a "Russian spy" and put you in prison.
jwr 5y ago
> But not because some government official suddenly decided they should You mean like this guy, for example? https://www.npr.org/2020/12/11/945565473/u-s-clears-for-release-long-time-guantanamo-inmate-never-charged-with-a-crime?t=1625650954049 https://www.npr.org/2020/12/11/945565473/u-s-clears-for-rele... Or the (by now, likely in the thousands) people killed by US drone attacks? I don't want to play the whataboutism card, but let's not pretend that the US is somehow exceptional here. In fact, I'd consider it one of the more troubling countries, with the kindappings, Guantanamo, and the "grey area" on the borders, where your constitutional rights do not apply. The world is not a nice place, and the US is no exception, unfortunately.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  The USA is exceptional in that that stuff does not happen to citizens within its borders.
  - Aeolos 5y ago
    Is that really the case? https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 "Police violence is a leading cause of death for young men in the United States. Over the life course, about 1 in every 1,000 black men can expect to be killed by police." https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56834733 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56834733 According to this ^, the police in the US is 3.5x more likely to kill civilians compared to other developed nations. (It would be interesting to find a world-wide comparison here.)
    - Leparamour 5y ago
      >"Police violence is a leading cause of death for young men in the United States. Over the life course, about 1 in every 1,000 black men can expect to be killed by police." These soundbytes usually (intentionally) omit half of the story. For example, how many police officers are being killed in encounters with black men? And how many less lethal (for black men) encounters would there be with black men not attacking officers or third persons but actually complying with police orders? The greatest danger to a black person's life only second to coronary diseases is another black person. It's these kind of questions which grievance studies activists and journalists never (dare to) ask.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
orbifold 5y ago
If you piss off the US enough you will become suicidal in a Spanish prison.

dmos62 5y ago

We don't have reliable prison and sentencing data for China.

danielrpa 5y ago

It's incredible how fast people on HN jump to false equivalencies when comparing US and China. The mere fact you can criticize the government in this forum without the fear of being brought in for questioning should give you some hints on how both systems compare. Criticize the US as much as you want (after all, you can do it), and the US government DOES deserve a good deal of criticism, but saying that the countries are somehow equivalent in the consequences for anti-state speech is laughable.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]