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> what really irks me about your post is your complacence with cheating because it’s not in your self-interest to pursue those who cheated Why don't you hold t

by gizmo 15y ago

> what really irks me about your post is your complacence with cheating because it’s not in your self-interest to pursue those who cheated Why don't you hold the other professors to the same standard? It's not as if the other professors are oblivious to rampant cheating. But what's the point of trying to catch cheaters if it hurts the class dynamic and if those who get caught don't even get suspended? The students are clearly OK with cheating otherwise the cheaters would be ostracized by the other students. The school management clearly doesn't care, since they don't take action against those who are caught red-handed. The teachers who care are punished for it: bad reviews and bad class atmosphere in return for extra hours on top of an already heavy schedule. And yet you don't thank the professor for trying to fight against cheaters (and losing that fight) but you effectively criticize him for having tried in the first place! > discussed it and concluded you were just racist A teacher is in a bad mood when a significant portion of the class is exposed as having no academic integrity, doesn't want to teach the class but still, according to your own words was a "great teacher in the classroom" and "gave good lectures". How do you explain his bad mood? Why of course, he must be racist. > all the students had received your email demanding those who plagiarized to come in to talk to you, naturally everyone, even those who didn’t cheat, felt very uneasy and worried This exact scenario happened in a class I attended some years back. Guess who felt nervous? Those who knew they cheated on the assignment and those who plagiarized habitually but didn't remember whether they plagiarized in this instance. The students who would never, ever, ever, copy-paste plagiarize did not feel the slightest bit worried. I'm sure you "collaborated" with a friend on a small part of the assignment. Yeah, that's the word all cheaters and plagiarizers use. > teaching evaluations don’t just measure your ability to give good lectures If you give a better evaluation to mediocre teachers who smile and say sorry when they're late, then that's exactly the kind of teachers you're going to get instead of the teachers who are great in the classroom and who teach classes where you learned a lot. Save your post and re-read it a few years from now. You'll probably be able to see it from a different perspective.

lolcraft 15y ago
This type of condescending, defensive reply enlightens no one. I mean, equating anxiety about being accused of something to actual guilt... that's thoughtcrime. Implying that the GP is so stupid that he/she couldn't distinguish racism from bad mood... that's a straight insult.
- gizmo 15y ago
  Hold on a second! The student accused the professor of racism in the post I replied to. I quote: "It got to the point where we [...] discussed it and concluded you were just racist". To accuse a professor semi-anonymously of racism is completely outrageous, so yes, I ridiculed him for that. Especially when absolutely no evidence of potential racism is provided. Careers are destroyed over baseless accusations of racism, y'know. Note also that the student is extremely condescending. His opening insinuates that the professor doesn't know the difference between correlation and causation, which is ludicrous. The student concludes with "And that, Panos, is where you failed". Again, unnecessarily condescending.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
    - gizmo 15y ago
      I do have a problem with that. But in this case the professor said he went to great lengths to avoid false positives and only took action against those students who confessed after being confronted with a mountain of evidence. In this case the professor stated that collaboration was absolutely prohibited. Cite: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2776039 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2776039
      - deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]
        scott_s 15y ago
        If you look at his post carefully, you'll notice he "collaborated" with another student. He knew he broke the rules, and he was terrified he would get caught. He did not. Personally, I think students should be able to discuss such assignments with each other, but I don't think you've accurately characterized the situation.
        deleted 15y ago
StavrosK 15y ago
What's wrong with just giving people who cheated a bad grade, rather than wasting hours talking to them?
- eropple 15y ago
  They will whine. Endlessly. Then again, they'll do that anyway.
  - ori_b 15y ago
    So give them a chance to appeal.
    - eropple 15y ago
      Sure. What I mean is, they'll whine to you anyway, trying to get around the system. And, practically, refusing to talk to them is difficult-to-impossible.
      - ori_b 15y ago
        I'm not sure that it should be the professor's job to handle appeals. It should be the same sort of process that schools use to handle appeals for missed tests and work. You miss a test, you get a zero. You go to the office of the dean with a note or explanation, get them to sign off that you should be allowed to retake, reweight, or whatever else it is that is needed, and then you go to the professor to deal with it. The same sort of process should probably be put in place for plagarism. The professor flags you, and if you want to appeal, you go to the dean's office, they review the possibly-plagarized paper, and if they feel that the professor was in error, or that the student deserves the benefit of the doubt, they allow some sort of corrective action.
        eropple 15y ago
        It shouldn't be their job at all, I agree, but the practical consideration is that they'll have a line of complaining students in their office that they can't exactly get rid of.
Dove 15y ago
all the students had received your email demanding those who plagiarized to come in to talk to you, naturally everyone, even those who didn’t cheat, felt very uneasy and worried This exact scenario happened in a class I attended some years back. Guess who felt nervous? Those who knew they cheated on the assignment and those who plagiarized habitually but didn't remember whether they plagiarized in this instance. The students who would never, ever, ever, copy-paste plagiarize did not feel the slightest bit worried. That isn't true at all. I've never cheated once -- from elementary school through grad school -- yet I've been accused of it twice by professors. In one case, I created something so novel and excellent, the professor assumed I had taken it from an obscure book; in another, the professor misunderstood how my software worked and thought it couldn't possibly produce the output I claimed. If a blanket accusation of plagiarism went out, I would be very concerned that another student might have found a way to copy my work, or that I might have subconsciously reproduced something, or that there might be some other false positive. I would definitely show up to find out what was going on.
- gizmo 15y ago
  You're right, I shouldn't have said "slightest bit worried". That was an overstatement. I stand by the rest of my arguments though.
cgp 15y ago
> But what's the point of trying to catch cheaters if it hurts the class dynamic and if those who get caught don't even get suspended? The students are clearly OK with cheating otherwise the cheaters would be ostracized by the other students. The school management clearly doesn't care, since they don't take action against those who are caught red-handed. So, what you're saying is, it's too hard, the risks too great -- therefore we shouldn't try?

by gizmo 15y ago

lolcraft 15y ago

This type of condescending, defensive reply enlightens no one. I mean, equating anxiety about being accused of something to actual guilt... that's thoughtcrime. Implying that the GP is so stupid that he/she couldn't distinguish racism from bad mood... that's a straight insult.

gizmo 15y ago
Hold on a second! The student accused the professor of racism in the post I replied to. I quote: "It got to the point where we [...] discussed it and concluded you were just racist". To accuse a professor semi-anonymously of racism is completely outrageous, so yes, I ridiculed him for that. Especially when absolutely no evidence of potential racism is provided. Careers are destroyed over baseless accusations of racism, y'know. Note also that the student is extremely condescending. His opening insinuates that the professor doesn't know the difference between correlation and causation, which is ludicrous. The student concludes with "And that, Panos, is where you failed". Again, unnecessarily condescending.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
  - gizmo 15y ago
    I do have a problem with that. But in this case the professor said he went to great lengths to avoid false positives and only took action against those students who confessed after being confronted with a mountain of evidence. In this case the professor stated that collaboration was absolutely prohibited. Cite: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2776039 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2776039
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
      - scott_s 15y ago
        If you look at his post carefully, you'll notice he "collaborated" with another student. He knew he broke the rules, and he was terrified he would get caught. He did not. Personally, I think students should be able to discuss such assignments with each other, but I don't think you've accurately characterized the situation.
        deleted 15y ago

StavrosK 15y ago

What's wrong with just giving people who cheated a bad grade, rather than wasting hours talking to them?

eropple 15y ago
They will whine. Endlessly. Then again, they'll do that anyway.
- ori_b 15y ago
  So give them a chance to appeal.
  - eropple 15y ago
    Sure. What I mean is, they'll whine to you anyway, trying to get around the system. And, practically, refusing to talk to them is difficult-to-impossible.
    - ori_b 15y ago
      I'm not sure that it should be the professor's job to handle appeals. It should be the same sort of process that schools use to handle appeals for missed tests and work. You miss a test, you get a zero. You go to the office of the dean with a note or explanation, get them to sign off that you should be allowed to retake, reweight, or whatever else it is that is needed, and then you go to the professor to deal with it. The same sort of process should probably be put in place for plagarism. The professor flags you, and if you want to appeal, you go to the dean's office, they review the possibly-plagarized paper, and if they feel that the professor was in error, or that the student deserves the benefit of the doubt, they allow some sort of corrective action.
      - eropple 15y ago
        It shouldn't be their job at all, I agree, but the practical consideration is that they'll have a line of complaining students in their office that they can't exactly get rid of.

Dove 15y ago

all the students had received your email demanding those who plagiarized to come in to talk to you, naturally everyone, even those who didn’t cheat, felt very uneasy and worried This exact scenario happened in a class I attended some years back. Guess who felt nervous? Those who knew they cheated on the assignment and those who plagiarized habitually but didn't remember whether they plagiarized in this instance. The students who would never, ever, ever, copy-paste plagiarize did not feel the slightest bit worried. That isn't true at all. I've never cheated once -- from elementary school through grad school -- yet I've been accused of it twice by professors. In one case, I created something so novel and excellent, the professor assumed I had taken it from an obscure book; in another, the professor misunderstood how my software worked and thought it couldn't possibly produce the output I claimed. If a blanket accusation of plagiarism went out, I would be very concerned that another student might have found a way to copy my work, or that I might have subconsciously reproduced something, or that there might be some other false positive. I would definitely show up to find out what was going on.

gizmo 15y ago
You're right, I shouldn't have said "slightest bit worried". That was an overstatement. I stand by the rest of my arguments though.

cgp 15y ago

> But what's the point of trying to catch cheaters if it hurts the class dynamic and if those who get caught don't even get suspended? The students are clearly OK with cheating otherwise the cheaters would be ostracized by the other students. The school management clearly doesn't care, since they don't take action against those who are caught red-handed. So, what you're saying is, it's too hard, the risks too great -- therefore we shouldn't try?