4 ms·

Colour me paranoid.. but I think I'm a realist. From China's point of view, the creation (and concentration) of (large amounts) of wealth in the hands of indiv

by cik 5y ago

Colour me paranoid.. but I think I'm a realist. From China's point of view, the creation (and concentration) of (large amounts) of wealth in the hands of individuals, leads to the concentration of power. That power in turn, becomes a threat to the current approach of the CCP, and the messages being shared with society. In 2019, China began working with PWC in an effort to repatriate, or at least dual-list IPOs, in either Shanghai (Star) or Hong Kong. DIDI publicly want against that goal - by single-listing on the Nasdaq. By accruing a massive amount of wealth, and freedoms, Ma began to become a thorn in the side of the CCP. It's one thing to have (direct) access to finances, it's another to disparage the state-run financial system. But it's still another to control purchase platforms, chat platforms, and the next-generation of educated, technology executives. This is where he was. Ma has been silenced, the threat has been eliminated. The CCP has proven, once again that they are adept at addressing both the internal and external threat to their perceived stability.

MrBuddyCasino 5y ago
This is exactly right. Same reason they shut down LGBTQ chat rooms. It will be very interesting to watch the trajectory of China vs the western model.
- skrebbel 5y ago
  Can you elaborate? How are LGBTQ chatrooms a threat to the power and stability of the CCP leadership in a way comparable to Jack Ma? EDIT: I don't mean this critically, I'm actually quite interested. There seems to be a correlation between how repressive a government is and how nasty they are towards LGBTQetc people. I never considered this to be a causal relationship until your comment. Maybe somehow Putin and Orban and Xi think that that this helps them stay in power? How? Why?
  - ailun 5y ago
    LGBTQ as a movement is seen as a western influence. It’s funny that I saw your comment, earlier today I read a machine-translated version of this article(1) that was shared by a Wechat contact. I would say this attitude is fairly common among people 40+ in China. Warning if you don’t want to get angry: it is full of repulsive views. (1) https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/Qar43EmA7x8yhntk5OhXTw https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/Qar43EmA7x8yhntk5OhXTw
    - nefitty 5y ago
      Well, it’s not often that a blog post makes me sick to my stomach.
    - undfg 5y ago
      I don't understand your argument. Are the screenshots in that post faked? Because if they are not, they prove that those movements are Western influence...
      - MrBuddyCasino 5y ago
        Another instance of the Celebration Parallax.
    - stickfigure 5y ago
      Wow, that was a novel interpretation of Brokeback Mountain.
  - dfadsadsf 5y ago
    LGBTQ by itself is not a threat to either Putin or Xi but what LGBTQ represents is a threat to traditional society and gender roles. The judgement is still out if new type of society developed in the west with modern gender norms, women’s rights and sexual freedoms is viable long term and from demographic perspective it’s frankly probably not. Authoritarians instinctively cling to the old roles/family and even if are not able to fully stop changes (US is amazing at exporting ideology) they try to and battle against LGBT is part of that fight. I do not think you can directly connect authoritarian and being anti LGBQ outside of modern context - Xi, Putin or Orban views on lgbt were mainstream in US only 20-30 years ago.
    - meibo 5y ago
      What's your point? Countries with LGBT and woman's rights aren't sustainable demographically? I think you're severely overstating the effect of LGBT people on this matter - western countries struggle with demographics, but it's not because more gay people are able to live their lives without being forced into straight relationships.
      - hash9 5y ago
        There is substantial research showing a negative correlation between female empowerment and fertility rates. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230554993_4 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230554993_4 https://bmcwomenshealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12905-019-0747-9 https://bmcwomenshealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s...
        smackeyacky 5y ago
        Children are power when you have limited alternatives.
      - llampx 5y ago
        I'd say it's because LGBT rights are seen by conservatives as generally coming with more freedom in society and that correlates with higher child-bearing age, fewer children being born in general, higher abortion rates, and more promiscuous society. Not my views, what I see as the reasons traditional conservatives want to keep LGBT acceptance to a minimum.
  - noone321 5y ago
    Because they're both threats to their power. If Ma had gone public, he could have used the foreign money in the way that Whitey Bulger used the FBI to eliminate his rivals within his own organization and then in other gangs. It's the double agent game most spooks excel at, so the CCP saw it coming nipped it in the bud. (It's also why I think Ma's been dead for quite some time. A country with billion smartphones and not one picture from some random waitress? C'mon.) The CCP are is obsessed with the relationship between demographics and war because it always thought that their extraordinary numbers would be their saving grace in WWIII. Now, for a lot of reasons, they're really not so certain. If you're a CCP leader, gay men aren't the problem so much as it is lesbians. (I've never seen trans people enter into the debate at the policy level, even though all three are existential threats to Confucianism.) The gender imbalance caused by the one son policy really is a problem because it means you have tens of millions of unmarriageable single young men. Historically, the more unmarriageable single young men you have as a percentage of your total population, the more violent crime your society has. If you hit a certain point, revolutions become far more likely. Lesbians -- as well as Chinese women who prefer Western men, their careers, or anything else -- have to be stomped out by any means necessary because because they feel that they are uncomfortably close to that tipping point. It's why a lot of people think the campaign to denigrate leftover women ultimately came from the CCP. Interestingly, its this demographic imbalance that is the reason for gay porn to still be somewhat tolerated, even if forums aren't. (Lesbian porn still isn't.) Chatrooms and forums are bad because they encourage solidarity and planning; porn is okay because you're just sitting in a room staring at a screen. Edit: Am I the only one who's a little disturbed at how closely the English language media has followed the Chinese language media on this? And people wonder why I stopped using FB/Twitter/smartphones.
taneq 5y ago
Doesn't need to be a threat, even. That concentration of wealth and power is a nice juicy morsel for the state to acquire.

by cik 5y ago

MrBuddyCasino 5y ago

This is exactly right. Same reason they shut down LGBTQ chat rooms. It will be very interesting to watch the trajectory of China vs the western model.

skrebbel 5y ago
Can you elaborate? How are LGBTQ chatrooms a threat to the power and stability of the CCP leadership in a way comparable to Jack Ma? EDIT: I don't mean this critically, I'm actually quite interested. There seems to be a correlation between how repressive a government is and how nasty they are towards LGBTQetc people. I never considered this to be a causal relationship until your comment. Maybe somehow Putin and Orban and Xi think that that this helps them stay in power? How? Why?
- ailun 5y ago
  LGBTQ as a movement is seen as a western influence. It’s funny that I saw your comment, earlier today I read a machine-translated version of this article(1) that was shared by a Wechat contact. I would say this attitude is fairly common among people 40+ in China. Warning if you don’t want to get angry: it is full of repulsive views. (1) https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/Qar43EmA7x8yhntk5OhXTw https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/Qar43EmA7x8yhntk5OhXTw
  - nefitty 5y ago
    Well, it’s not often that a blog post makes me sick to my stomach.
  - undfg 5y ago
    I don't understand your argument. Are the screenshots in that post faked? Because if they are not, they prove that those movements are Western influence...
    - MrBuddyCasino 5y ago
      Another instance of the Celebration Parallax.
  - stickfigure 5y ago
    Wow, that was a novel interpretation of Brokeback Mountain.
- dfadsadsf 5y ago
  LGBTQ by itself is not a threat to either Putin or Xi but what LGBTQ represents is a threat to traditional society and gender roles. The judgement is still out if new type of society developed in the west with modern gender norms, women’s rights and sexual freedoms is viable long term and from demographic perspective it’s frankly probably not. Authoritarians instinctively cling to the old roles/family and even if are not able to fully stop changes (US is amazing at exporting ideology) they try to and battle against LGBT is part of that fight. I do not think you can directly connect authoritarian and being anti LGBQ outside of modern context - Xi, Putin or Orban views on lgbt were mainstream in US only 20-30 years ago.
  - meibo 5y ago
    What's your point? Countries with LGBT and woman's rights aren't sustainable demographically? I think you're severely overstating the effect of LGBT people on this matter - western countries struggle with demographics, but it's not because more gay people are able to live their lives without being forced into straight relationships.
    - hash9 5y ago
      There is substantial research showing a negative correlation between female empowerment and fertility rates. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230554993_4 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230554993_4 https://bmcwomenshealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12905-019-0747-9 https://bmcwomenshealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s...
      - smackeyacky 5y ago
        Children are power when you have limited alternatives.
    - llampx 5y ago
      I'd say it's because LGBT rights are seen by conservatives as generally coming with more freedom in society and that correlates with higher child-bearing age, fewer children being born in general, higher abortion rates, and more promiscuous society. Not my views, what I see as the reasons traditional conservatives want to keep LGBT acceptance to a minimum.
- noone321 5y ago
  Because they're both threats to their power. If Ma had gone public, he could have used the foreign money in the way that Whitey Bulger used the FBI to eliminate his rivals within his own organization and then in other gangs. It's the double agent game most spooks excel at, so the CCP saw it coming nipped it in the bud. (It's also why I think Ma's been dead for quite some time. A country with billion smartphones and not one picture from some random waitress? C'mon.) The CCP are is obsessed with the relationship between demographics and war because it always thought that their extraordinary numbers would be their saving grace in WWIII. Now, for a lot of reasons, they're really not so certain. If you're a CCP leader, gay men aren't the problem so much as it is lesbians. (I've never seen trans people enter into the debate at the policy level, even though all three are existential threats to Confucianism.) The gender imbalance caused by the one son policy really is a problem because it means you have tens of millions of unmarriageable single young men. Historically, the more unmarriageable single young men you have as a percentage of your total population, the more violent crime your society has. If you hit a certain point, revolutions become far more likely. Lesbians -- as well as Chinese women who prefer Western men, their careers, or anything else -- have to be stomped out by any means necessary because because they feel that they are uncomfortably close to that tipping point. It's why a lot of people think the campaign to denigrate leftover women ultimately came from the CCP. Interestingly, its this demographic imbalance that is the reason for gay porn to still be somewhat tolerated, even if forums aren't. (Lesbian porn still isn't.) Chatrooms and forums are bad because they encourage solidarity and planning; porn is okay because you're just sitting in a room staring at a screen. Edit: Am I the only one who's a little disturbed at how closely the English language media has followed the Chinese language media on this? And people wonder why I stopped using FB/Twitter/smartphones.

taneq 5y ago

Doesn't need to be a threat, even. That concentration of wealth and power is a nice juicy morsel for the state to acquire.