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>. All governments and societies make all kinds of "tyrannical" rules about raising children, in the name of limiting harm to children No, they objectively don

by adflux 5y ago

>. All governments and societies make all kinds of "tyrannical" rules about raising children, in the name of limiting harm to children No, they objectively don't, wtf. Stop normalizing this kind of behavior

saithound 5y ago
Feel free to name at least one government or society which has no such rules. All societies have them, and many such rules are widely accepted by the societies that have them as beneficial. E.g. such laws are the reason parents are not allowed to expose their children to obscene images, even if the parents really are convinced that doing so would benefit their children.
- rb666 5y ago
  The Dutch government? Also, how is "not allowing homeschooling" tyrannical? Corona especially has shown us that the quality of education received at a school is much higher than at home. Every child deserves to not be held back by their parents in this way.
  - aerique 5y ago
    Are you Dutch?! Because we, the Dutch, haven't been really progressive for like at least two decades. There's limits on the age you're allowed to buy alcohol in The Netherlands just like in other countries.
  - jstanley 5y ago
    > Corona especially has shown us that the quality of education received at a school is much higher than at home. Among a population of parents who have a revealed preference not to home-school, sure. But it says nothing about outcomes among a population of parents who actually want to home-school their kids.
  - shard 5y ago
    > Corona especially has shown us that the quality of education received at a school is much higher than at home. This definitely depends on whether those are the only two choices. If homeschooling includes the parents having the choice to send their kids to private academies of their choosing instead, then it's possible that homeschooling can be superior. I don't know what it's like in the Netherlands, but in South Korea, with the very strong private academy culture, the public school system is actual comparatively subpar. Public schools are more useful for subjects like civics and history than more academic subjects like math and science.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - concordDance 5y ago
    In the Corona case education was still the schools' responsibility, they (and the parents really) just were suddenly thrust into it with little prep or time to rearrange things. This is very different to homeschooling. Particularly with parents making a conscious decision to homeschool and properly planning how they're going to find the time.
  - firestarter223 5y ago
    On the contrary, the last couple of years (including corona) have shown how much misinformation governments and schools are willing to spread. I worry a lot about the best ways to shield my children from that.
    - myrmidon 5y ago
      > last couple of years (including corona) have shown how much misinformation governments and schools are willing to spread. I'm genuinely curious-- What specifially are you talking about? I'm having a really hard time coming up with harmful misinformation that is perpetuated intentionally by the education system (or government) in any western country...
      - joshuaissac 5y ago
        At the beginning of the pandemic in the UK, the government was perpetuating misinformation about masks, recommending that people not wear them, even as East Asian countries had made them mandatory.[1][2][3][4] The same misinformation was also spread by US authorities, hoping this would alleviate the mask shortage for healthcare workers.[5][6] Some even admitted this later.[7] 1. "Coronavirus: 'We do not recommend face masks for general wearing'". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-52153145 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-52153145 2. "Timeline: The UK's arguments against face masks for all". https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-06/Timeline-The-UK-s-arguments-against-face-masks-for-all-R4ZUizpUfm/index.html https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-06/Timeline-The-UK-s-ar... 3. "Coronavirus: Chief medical officer tells public not to wear masks". https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-uk-news-professor-chris-whitty-no-masks-advice-a9374086.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-... 4. "Why is the Government so adamant that face masks don't work?". https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/15/government-adamant-face-masks-dont-work/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/15/government-adama... 5. "Why Telling People They Don't Need Masks Backfired". https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-masks.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... 6. "The Face Mask Debate Reveals a Scientific Double Standard". https://www.wired.com/story/the-face-mask-debate-reveals-a-scientific-double-standard/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-face-mask-debate-reveals-a-s... 7. "Fauci Confirms Public-Health Experts Downplayed Efficacy of Masks to Ensure They Would Be Available to Health-care Workers". https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-confirms-public-health-experts-200322837.html https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-confirms-public-health-experts-...
  - arkey 5y ago
    There are many, many cases in which home-school can lead to a better education quality than a public school. It's not the same to have the parents purposefully owning and caring and dedicating to the education of the children and on the other side, an unexpected circumstance that causes your children to suddenly stay at home and try to follow an education program in which no one is prepared for such scenario. Homeschool as a way of life is not comparable to what happened during/because of the pandemic. "Not allowing homeschooling" in an absolute way is completely tyrannical.
- Symbiote 5y ago
  Perhaps an example of a rule or law a European country has, but China doesn't. I think one example is the age of consent, which is 14 in China, lower than most of Europe and the USA. It's a good alternative to video games...
  - noduerme 5y ago
    taken together it sounds like a last-ditch effort to up their birth rate!
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
Objectively isn't a way to make your statement more powerful. Cite sources instead. Objective sources.
ElFitz 5y ago
One would hope for a better supported rebuttal given that the gp went through the trouble of giving a few examples. Or is that more of a firmly and deeply held personal belief more akin to blind faith or hopeful candor than an actual opinion supported by facts? From the guidelines: > Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something. > Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity.
herbst 5y ago
It's not to wrong tho. In many western countries you can not take your children of school. Or even have no real choice which school they may visit (if you can't pay for a private one that is) if you do not agree with your local schooling system that appears tyrannic in a way. I am sure I can't find other examples. Not saying what china does is right, but we obviously haven't mastered raising children either.

by adflux 5y ago

saithound 5y ago

Feel free to name at least one government or society which has no such rules. All societies have them, and many such rules are widely accepted by the societies that have them as beneficial. E.g. such laws are the reason parents are not allowed to expose their children to obscene images, even if the parents really are convinced that doing so would benefit their children.

rb666 5y ago
The Dutch government? Also, how is "not allowing homeschooling" tyrannical? Corona especially has shown us that the quality of education received at a school is much higher than at home. Every child deserves to not be held back by their parents in this way.
- aerique 5y ago
  Are you Dutch?! Because we, the Dutch, haven't been really progressive for like at least two decades. There's limits on the age you're allowed to buy alcohol in The Netherlands just like in other countries.
- jstanley 5y ago
  > Corona especially has shown us that the quality of education received at a school is much higher than at home. Among a population of parents who have a revealed preference not to home-school, sure. But it says nothing about outcomes among a population of parents who actually want to home-school their kids.
- shard 5y ago
  > Corona especially has shown us that the quality of education received at a school is much higher than at home. This definitely depends on whether those are the only two choices. If homeschooling includes the parents having the choice to send their kids to private academies of their choosing instead, then it's possible that homeschooling can be superior. I don't know what it's like in the Netherlands, but in South Korea, with the very strong private academy culture, the public school system is actual comparatively subpar. Public schools are more useful for subjects like civics and history than more academic subjects like math and science.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- concordDance 5y ago
  In the Corona case education was still the schools' responsibility, they (and the parents really) just were suddenly thrust into it with little prep or time to rearrange things. This is very different to homeschooling. Particularly with parents making a conscious decision to homeschool and properly planning how they're going to find the time.
- firestarter223 5y ago
  On the contrary, the last couple of years (including corona) have shown how much misinformation governments and schools are willing to spread. I worry a lot about the best ways to shield my children from that.
  - myrmidon 5y ago
    > last couple of years (including corona) have shown how much misinformation governments and schools are willing to spread. I'm genuinely curious-- What specifially are you talking about? I'm having a really hard time coming up with harmful misinformation that is perpetuated intentionally by the education system (or government) in any western country...
    - joshuaissac 5y ago
      At the beginning of the pandemic in the UK, the government was perpetuating misinformation about masks, recommending that people not wear them, even as East Asian countries had made them mandatory.[1][2][3][4] The same misinformation was also spread by US authorities, hoping this would alleviate the mask shortage for healthcare workers.[5][6] Some even admitted this later.[7] 1. "Coronavirus: 'We do not recommend face masks for general wearing'". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-52153145 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-52153145 2. "Timeline: The UK's arguments against face masks for all". https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-06/Timeline-The-UK-s-arguments-against-face-masks-for-all-R4ZUizpUfm/index.html https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-06/Timeline-The-UK-s-ar... 3. "Coronavirus: Chief medical officer tells public not to wear masks". https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-uk-news-professor-chris-whitty-no-masks-advice-a9374086.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-... 4. "Why is the Government so adamant that face masks don't work?". https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/15/government-adamant-face-masks-dont-work/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/15/government-adama... 5. "Why Telling People They Don't Need Masks Backfired". https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-masks.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... 6. "The Face Mask Debate Reveals a Scientific Double Standard". https://www.wired.com/story/the-face-mask-debate-reveals-a-scientific-double-standard/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-face-mask-debate-reveals-a-s... 7. "Fauci Confirms Public-Health Experts Downplayed Efficacy of Masks to Ensure They Would Be Available to Health-care Workers". https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-confirms-public-health-experts-200322837.html https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-confirms-public-health-experts-...
- arkey 5y ago
  There are many, many cases in which home-school can lead to a better education quality than a public school. It's not the same to have the parents purposefully owning and caring and dedicating to the education of the children and on the other side, an unexpected circumstance that causes your children to suddenly stay at home and try to follow an education program in which no one is prepared for such scenario. Homeschool as a way of life is not comparable to what happened during/because of the pandemic. "Not allowing homeschooling" in an absolute way is completely tyrannical.
Symbiote 5y ago
Perhaps an example of a rule or law a European country has, but China doesn't. I think one example is the age of consent, which is 14 in China, lower than most of Europe and the USA. It's a good alternative to video games...
- noduerme 5y ago
  taken together it sounds like a last-ditch effort to up their birth rate!

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

Objectively isn't a way to make your statement more powerful. Cite sources instead. Objective sources.

ElFitz 5y ago

One would hope for a better supported rebuttal given that the gp went through the trouble of giving a few examples. Or is that more of a firmly and deeply held personal belief more akin to blind faith or hopeful candor than an actual opinion supported by facts? From the guidelines: > Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something. > Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity.

herbst 5y ago

It's not to wrong tho. In many western countries you can not take your children of school. Or even have no real choice which school they may visit (if you can't pay for a private one that is) if you do not agree with your local schooling system that appears tyrannic in a way. I am sure I can't find other examples. Not saying what china does is right, but we obviously haven't mastered raising children either.