8 ms·

> But then, this is a gov't that does not trust its citizens to raise their own children, or even historically to decide how many kids to have. The Chinese gov

> But then, this is a gov't that does not trust its citizens to raise their own children, or even historically to decide how many kids to have. The Chinese government is worse than most others, but not for this reason. All governments and societies make all kinds of "tyrannical" rules about raising children, in the name of limiting harm to children. This is no different. In Germany, the government does not trust parents to home-school their children In the US, legal adults between the ages of 18 and 21 can decide to join the Army, travel to exotic lands and die there. The same adults are not trusted to make the decision of buying and drinking beer.

adflux 5y ago
>. All governments and societies make all kinds of "tyrannical" rules about raising children, in the name of limiting harm to children No, they objectively don't, wtf. Stop normalizing this kind of behavior
- saithound 5y ago
  Feel free to name at least one government or society which has no such rules. All societies have them, and many such rules are widely accepted by the societies that have them as beneficial. E.g. such laws are the reason parents are not allowed to expose their children to obscene images, even if the parents really are convinced that doing so would benefit their children.
  - rb666 5y ago
    The Dutch government? Also, how is "not allowing homeschooling" tyrannical? Corona especially has shown us that the quality of education received at a school is much higher than at home. Every child deserves to not be held back by their parents in this way.
    - aerique 5y ago
      Are you Dutch?! Because we, the Dutch, haven't been really progressive for like at least two decades. There's limits on the age you're allowed to buy alcohol in The Netherlands just like in other countries.
    - jstanley 5y ago
      > Corona especially has shown us that the quality of education received at a school is much higher than at home. Among a population of parents who have a revealed preference not to home-school, sure. But it says nothing about outcomes among a population of parents who actually want to home-school their kids.
    - shard 5y ago
      > Corona especially has shown us that the quality of education received at a school is much higher than at home. This definitely depends on whether those are the only two choices. If homeschooling includes the parents having the choice to send their kids to private academies of their choosing instead, then it's possible that homeschooling can be superior. I don't know what it's like in the Netherlands, but in South Korea, with the very strong private academy culture, the public school system is actual comparatively subpar. Public schools are more useful for subjects like civics and history than more academic subjects like math and science.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - concordDance 5y ago
      In the Corona case education was still the schools' responsibility, they (and the parents really) just were suddenly thrust into it with little prep or time to rearrange things. This is very different to homeschooling. Particularly with parents making a conscious decision to homeschool and properly planning how they're going to find the time.
    - firestarter223 5y ago
      On the contrary, the last couple of years (including corona) have shown how much misinformation governments and schools are willing to spread. I worry a lot about the best ways to shield my children from that.
      - myrmidon 5y ago
        > last couple of years (including corona) have shown how much misinformation governments and schools are willing to spread. I'm genuinely curious-- What specifially are you talking about? I'm having a really hard time coming up with harmful misinformation that is perpetuated intentionally by the education system (or government) in any western country...
        joshuaissac 5y ago
        At the beginning of the pandemic in the UK, the government was perpetuating misinformation about masks, recommending that people not wear them, even as East Asian countries had made them mandatory.[1][2][3][4] The same misinformation was also spread by US authorities, hoping this would alleviate the mask shortage for healthcare workers.[5][6] Some even admitted this later.[7] 1. "Coronavirus: 'We do not recommend face masks for general wearing'". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-52153145 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-52153145 2. "Timeline: The UK's arguments against face masks for all". https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-06/Timeline-The-UK-s-arguments-against-face-masks-for-all-R4ZUizpUfm/index.html https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-06/Timeline-The-UK-s-ar... 3. "Coronavirus: Chief medical officer tells public not to wear masks". https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-uk-news-professor-chris-whitty-no-masks-advice-a9374086.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-... 4. "Why is the Government so adamant that face masks don't work?". https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/15/government-adamant-face-masks-dont-work/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/15/government-adama... 5. "Why Telling People They Don't Need Masks Backfired". https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-masks.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... 6. "The Face Mask Debate Reveals a Scientific Double Standard". https://www.wired.com/story/the-face-mask-debate-reveals-a-scientific-double-standard/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-face-mask-debate-reveals-a-s... 7. "Fauci Confirms Public-Health Experts Downplayed Efficacy of Masks to Ensure They Would Be Available to Health-care Workers". https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-confirms-public-health-experts-200322837.html https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-confirms-public-health-experts-...
    - arkey 5y ago
      There are many, many cases in which home-school can lead to a better education quality than a public school. It's not the same to have the parents purposefully owning and caring and dedicating to the education of the children and on the other side, an unexpected circumstance that causes your children to suddenly stay at home and try to follow an education program in which no one is prepared for such scenario. Homeschool as a way of life is not comparable to what happened during/because of the pandemic. "Not allowing homeschooling" in an absolute way is completely tyrannical.
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    Perhaps an example of a rule or law a European country has, but China doesn't. I think one example is the age of consent, which is 14 in China, lower than most of Europe and the USA. It's a good alternative to video games...
    - noduerme 5y ago
      taken together it sounds like a last-ditch effort to up their birth rate!
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  Objectively isn't a way to make your statement more powerful. Cite sources instead. Objective sources.
- ElFitz 5y ago
  One would hope for a better supported rebuttal given that the gp went through the trouble of giving a few examples. Or is that more of a firmly and deeply held personal belief more akin to blind faith or hopeful candor than an actual opinion supported by facts? From the guidelines: > Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something. > Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity.
- herbst 5y ago
  It's not to wrong tho. In many western countries you can not take your children of school. Or even have no real choice which school they may visit (if you can't pay for a private one that is) if you do not agree with your local schooling system that appears tyrannic in a way. I am sure I can't find other examples. Not saying what china does is right, but we obviously haven't mastered raising children either.
judge2020 5y ago
> The same adults are not trusted to make the decision of buying and drinking beer. My understanding is that studies showed that drinking before a certain age (on average of course) has a high chance of causing physiological brain deterioration, but I haven’t done any recent research to see if this was still a thing. The age requirement is the government not trusting their citizens not to damage themselves.
- pjc50 5y ago
  So does American football, which kids in America are expected to learn: https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/1038120/over-99-of-nfl-players-brains-in-a-study-of-dead-players-have-cte-permanent-brain-damage/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/1038120/over-99-of-nfl-p... Let's not assume the drinking age is anything to do with evidence.
  - leereeves 5y ago
    What government, at any level, in America has a rule mandating that children learn American tackle football?
    - pjc50 5y ago
      Expected socially, not mandated. You're not mandated to drink alcohol either. It's also a top public spending priority: https://www.athleticbusiness.com/college/the-highest-paid-public-employees-in-39-states-is-a-coach.html https://www.athleticbusiness.com/college/the-highest-paid-pu...
      - shard 5y ago
        Hmm, I went through the American educational system from elementary through grad school, and I never felt any social expectation to learn football, either the rules or how to actual play. Maybe it's a costal city versus middle America thing? (I grew up in NY and went to California for post secondary education)
blfr 5y ago
In the US, legal adults between the ages of 18 and 21 can decide to join the Army, travel to exotic lands and die there. The same adults are not trusted to make the decision of buying and drinking beer. They're trusted to join the Army which includes fairly strict supervision from the chain of command. This is more akin to drinking with your parents than going off by yourself.
- yoz-y 5y ago
  Drinking an unsupervised beer still seems less dangerous than taking a supervised bullet.
- Broken_Hippo 5y ago
  Not really. "We are going to trust you to go into war - a stressful situation - and know who to kill and who not to kill, if need be... but no, we definitely won't let you sit at home and drink a beer, even if it is with your parents. That is criminal" It is pretending to treat someone like a mature adult, with all of the responsibilities, but refusing to allow beer and bars, which are common recreational and social habits in the culture.
- noduerme 5y ago
  Voting and drinking ages used to both be 21. Notably, around 1969-1971 during the height of the Vietnam draft, 30 states lowered their drinking and voting ages to 18. Most of these went back to a drinking age of 21 by the early 1980s, but voting remained at 18. It was directly due to pressure from the anti-war movement.
rotebeete 5y ago
> In Germany, the government does not trust parents to home-school their children This is to protect children from their parents, this "anti-excessive-gaming" bullshit is directly attacking personal agency! If you have the resources (time, money, teachers etc.) to get your children the same education they would get in a (german) public school you might as well found a private one. This is even incentivized by federal and local government. ("Freie Trägerschaft") (Anecdotal warning:) Everyone I've met (about a dozen people) who wanted to home school their children did so for a specific reason. They were religious, wanted their kid to hold the same religious/esoteric views and thought their kid was their property. Most (older) kids were very happy they could visit an actual school.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Aerroon 5y ago
  >If you have the resources (time, money, teachers etc.) to get your children the same education they would get in a (german) public school you might as well found a private one. Unless Germany's public school education somehow doesn't show its results on tests like PISA then this shouldn't be too difficult to provide to one or two kids. More than that would make it way harder. And I'm sure that if you did try to found a private school you'd have to deal with a mile long list of inane regulations as seems standard in all aspects of Germany. Just an example of the absurd regulations in a different subject: Germany requires a license to stream to more than 500 people and they've actually enforced this on streamers. The license can cost €10k.
  - suyjuris 5y ago
    > Just an example of the absurd regulations in a different subject: Germany requires a license to stream to more than 500 people and they've actually enforced this on streamers. The license can cost €10k. This information is outdated and misleading. Since 2020, licenses for public broadcast are only required for broadcasts which, averaged over six months, exceed 20000 viewers and have significant importance for the formation of public and private opinion [1]. Prior to this change, some streamers had indeed been forced to acquire such a license (although there were more conditions than just regularly having 500 viewers). Also, licenses for streamers actually cost around 1000-2500 €, instead of the 10000 € you claimed. In addition, there was an exception for cases where this would be an undue hardship [2]. The regulator basically agreed that this was pretty silly, but that it planned to enforce the law as written (as is its job), until it was changed (which it has been). [1] (german) § 54 MStV, https://www.gesetze-bayern.de/Content/Document/MStV-54 https://www.gesetze-bayern.de/Content/Document/MStV-54 [2] (german) https://t3n.de/news/livestreams-rundfunklizenz-1175321/ https://t3n.de/news/livestreams-rundfunklizenz-1175321/
curiousgal 5y ago
I'm always surprised how people in the US immediately lose their shit at the sight of a child locked in a car. Like yes it is dangerous but it does not automatically make the parent the most horrible person to ever exist. https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/parenting/a22724843/kim-brooks-son-legal-battle/ https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/parenting/a22724843/ki...
- calsy 5y ago
  The idea of an unsupervised child being being cooked in a car as hot as an oven is unsettling to most. Doesn't take long for a child to succumb to the heat. Only couple of months ago in my area a mum had left a 3 year old and baby in the car, walked into her house and fell asleep for an hour. She woke up, realised what happened, ran to the car and the kids were dead. Another more recent incident occurred where a child was left in a day care bus unknowingly by the driver. He did not inspect the seats prior to locking up the bus outside in the sun. The child was found dead when he got back in the bus that afternoon.
  - mensetmanusman 5y ago
    People gather even if the car is on and the AC is clearly on full blast and the blinkers are on clearly indicating that the adult has just left in the last few minutes. My wife was screamed at by someone who thought there was zero risk involved in bringing the little ones through an incredibly busy parking lot where everyone drives SUVs and oversized trucks. It’s as if they couldn’t imagine a situation where the parents have already done the risk analysis and determined it is far less safe walking a pack of kids through the jungle of death machines.
    - calsy 5y ago
      Why are you trying to convince us leaving kids unsupervised in car parks is no big deal? You walk with the child in hand or if you're really concerned just pick them up. Point is there is a responsible parent who is watching and looking after the kids. Parenting isn't easy, its annoying to take kids in for short trip to shops, but you just have to do it.
araneae 5y ago
I feel like this is very different in kind. Are there any other countries that enforce a daily time limit on an activity, whether for children or adults? It seems either an activity (like smoking) is typically banned entirely or allowed; having it be partially allowed like this is difficult to enforce and consequently invites weird and invasive measures like these.
- saithound 5y ago
  Yes, there are. Examples that immediately come to mind: - Anyone driving a large vehicle for more than 9 hours per day, 56 in a week, and 90 over a two-week period in the European Union. - Adults using a tanning under a sunlamp for more than one cycle in a 24 hour period in many countries (others, such as Australia, did ban them entirely). - Children spending more than 10 hours per day in child care centers in many US states, such as Washington. - Alcohol purchases are limited to certain times of day in many European countries (compare "No games between 10pm and 8am" in China). Many of these are very difficult to enforce, and enforcement benefits from intrusive technology (such as tachographs) and even more so from intrusive AI (e.g. many EU countries were set to implement platforms to monitor truck drivers using AI, until the European Commission's Artificial Intelligence Act forced a change of plans). I also disagree with the previous examples being as different in kind as you seem to think: e.g. the "no home-schooling" requirements, combined with mandatory attendance, still limits children's gaming time to something less than 19 hours on weekdays. Which is different from "no more than 1.5 hours", but only quantitatively, not qualitatively. And it certainly matches "the government does not trust its citizens to raise their own children", which was my main point.
  - toomanybeersies 5y ago
    Australia also has limits on heavy vehicle driving hours, and cameras on the main highways to enforce them.
    - noduerme 5y ago
      Plus they have those ridiculous billboards every 10km that say "are you sleepy yet?" Australia's social nudging really freaks me out.

adflux 5y ago

>. All governments and societies make all kinds of "tyrannical" rules about raising children, in the name of limiting harm to children No, they objectively don't, wtf. Stop normalizing this kind of behavior

saithound 5y ago
Feel free to name at least one government or society which has no such rules. All societies have them, and many such rules are widely accepted by the societies that have them as beneficial. E.g. such laws are the reason parents are not allowed to expose their children to obscene images, even if the parents really are convinced that doing so would benefit their children.
- rb666 5y ago
  The Dutch government? Also, how is "not allowing homeschooling" tyrannical? Corona especially has shown us that the quality of education received at a school is much higher than at home. Every child deserves to not be held back by their parents in this way.
  - aerique 5y ago
    Are you Dutch?! Because we, the Dutch, haven't been really progressive for like at least two decades. There's limits on the age you're allowed to buy alcohol in The Netherlands just like in other countries.
  - jstanley 5y ago
    > Corona especially has shown us that the quality of education received at a school is much higher than at home. Among a population of parents who have a revealed preference not to home-school, sure. But it says nothing about outcomes among a population of parents who actually want to home-school their kids.
  - shard 5y ago
    > Corona especially has shown us that the quality of education received at a school is much higher than at home. This definitely depends on whether those are the only two choices. If homeschooling includes the parents having the choice to send their kids to private academies of their choosing instead, then it's possible that homeschooling can be superior. I don't know what it's like in the Netherlands, but in South Korea, with the very strong private academy culture, the public school system is actual comparatively subpar. Public schools are more useful for subjects like civics and history than more academic subjects like math and science.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - concordDance 5y ago
    In the Corona case education was still the schools' responsibility, they (and the parents really) just were suddenly thrust into it with little prep or time to rearrange things. This is very different to homeschooling. Particularly with parents making a conscious decision to homeschool and properly planning how they're going to find the time.
  - firestarter223 5y ago
    On the contrary, the last couple of years (including corona) have shown how much misinformation governments and schools are willing to spread. I worry a lot about the best ways to shield my children from that.
    - myrmidon 5y ago
      > last couple of years (including corona) have shown how much misinformation governments and schools are willing to spread. I'm genuinely curious-- What specifially are you talking about? I'm having a really hard time coming up with harmful misinformation that is perpetuated intentionally by the education system (or government) in any western country...
      - joshuaissac 5y ago
        At the beginning of the pandemic in the UK, the government was perpetuating misinformation about masks, recommending that people not wear them, even as East Asian countries had made them mandatory.[1][2][3][4] The same misinformation was also spread by US authorities, hoping this would alleviate the mask shortage for healthcare workers.[5][6] Some even admitted this later.[7] 1. "Coronavirus: 'We do not recommend face masks for general wearing'". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-52153145 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-52153145 2. "Timeline: The UK's arguments against face masks for all". https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-06/Timeline-The-UK-s-arguments-against-face-masks-for-all-R4ZUizpUfm/index.html https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-06/Timeline-The-UK-s-ar... 3. "Coronavirus: Chief medical officer tells public not to wear masks". https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-uk-news-professor-chris-whitty-no-masks-advice-a9374086.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-... 4. "Why is the Government so adamant that face masks don't work?". https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/15/government-adamant-face-masks-dont-work/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/15/government-adama... 5. "Why Telling People They Don't Need Masks Backfired". https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-masks.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... 6. "The Face Mask Debate Reveals a Scientific Double Standard". https://www.wired.com/story/the-face-mask-debate-reveals-a-scientific-double-standard/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-face-mask-debate-reveals-a-s... 7. "Fauci Confirms Public-Health Experts Downplayed Efficacy of Masks to Ensure They Would Be Available to Health-care Workers". https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-confirms-public-health-experts-200322837.html https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-confirms-public-health-experts-...
  - arkey 5y ago
    There are many, many cases in which home-school can lead to a better education quality than a public school. It's not the same to have the parents purposefully owning and caring and dedicating to the education of the children and on the other side, an unexpected circumstance that causes your children to suddenly stay at home and try to follow an education program in which no one is prepared for such scenario. Homeschool as a way of life is not comparable to what happened during/because of the pandemic. "Not allowing homeschooling" in an absolute way is completely tyrannical.
- Symbiote 5y ago
  Perhaps an example of a rule or law a European country has, but China doesn't. I think one example is the age of consent, which is 14 in China, lower than most of Europe and the USA. It's a good alternative to video games...
  - noduerme 5y ago
    taken together it sounds like a last-ditch effort to up their birth rate!
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
Objectively isn't a way to make your statement more powerful. Cite sources instead. Objective sources.
ElFitz 5y ago
One would hope for a better supported rebuttal given that the gp went through the trouble of giving a few examples. Or is that more of a firmly and deeply held personal belief more akin to blind faith or hopeful candor than an actual opinion supported by facts? From the guidelines: > Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something. > Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity.
herbst 5y ago
It's not to wrong tho. In many western countries you can not take your children of school. Or even have no real choice which school they may visit (if you can't pay for a private one that is) if you do not agree with your local schooling system that appears tyrannic in a way. I am sure I can't find other examples. Not saying what china does is right, but we obviously haven't mastered raising children either.

judge2020 5y ago

> The same adults are not trusted to make the decision of buying and drinking beer. My understanding is that studies showed that drinking before a certain age (on average of course) has a high chance of causing physiological brain deterioration, but I haven’t done any recent research to see if this was still a thing. The age requirement is the government not trusting their citizens not to damage themselves.

pjc50 5y ago
So does American football, which kids in America are expected to learn: https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/1038120/over-99-of-nfl-players-brains-in-a-study-of-dead-players-have-cte-permanent-brain-damage/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/1038120/over-99-of-nfl-p... Let's not assume the drinking age is anything to do with evidence.
- leereeves 5y ago
  What government, at any level, in America has a rule mandating that children learn American tackle football?
  - pjc50 5y ago
    Expected socially, not mandated. You're not mandated to drink alcohol either. It's also a top public spending priority: https://www.athleticbusiness.com/college/the-highest-paid-public-employees-in-39-states-is-a-coach.html https://www.athleticbusiness.com/college/the-highest-paid-pu...
    - shard 5y ago
      Hmm, I went through the American educational system from elementary through grad school, and I never felt any social expectation to learn football, either the rules or how to actual play. Maybe it's a costal city versus middle America thing? (I grew up in NY and went to California for post secondary education)

blfr 5y ago

In the US, legal adults between the ages of 18 and 21 can decide to join the Army, travel to exotic lands and die there. The same adults are not trusted to make the decision of buying and drinking beer. They're trusted to join the Army which includes fairly strict supervision from the chain of command. This is more akin to drinking with your parents than going off by yourself.

yoz-y 5y ago
Drinking an unsupervised beer still seems less dangerous than taking a supervised bullet.
Broken_Hippo 5y ago
Not really. "We are going to trust you to go into war - a stressful situation - and know who to kill and who not to kill, if need be... but no, we definitely won't let you sit at home and drink a beer, even if it is with your parents. That is criminal" It is pretending to treat someone like a mature adult, with all of the responsibilities, but refusing to allow beer and bars, which are common recreational and social habits in the culture.
noduerme 5y ago
Voting and drinking ages used to both be 21. Notably, around 1969-1971 during the height of the Vietnam draft, 30 states lowered their drinking and voting ages to 18. Most of these went back to a drinking age of 21 by the early 1980s, but voting remained at 18. It was directly due to pressure from the anti-war movement.

rotebeete 5y ago

> In Germany, the government does not trust parents to home-school their children This is to protect children from their parents, this "anti-excessive-gaming" bullshit is directly attacking personal agency! If you have the resources (time, money, teachers etc.) to get your children the same education they would get in a (german) public school you might as well found a private one. This is even incentivized by federal and local government. ("Freie Trägerschaft") (Anecdotal warning:) Everyone I've met (about a dozen people) who wanted to home school their children did so for a specific reason. They were religious, wanted their kid to hold the same religious/esoteric views and thought their kid was their property. Most (older) kids were very happy they could visit an actual school.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Aerroon 5y ago
>If you have the resources (time, money, teachers etc.) to get your children the same education they would get in a (german) public school you might as well found a private one. Unless Germany's public school education somehow doesn't show its results on tests like PISA then this shouldn't be too difficult to provide to one or two kids. More than that would make it way harder. And I'm sure that if you did try to found a private school you'd have to deal with a mile long list of inane regulations as seems standard in all aspects of Germany. Just an example of the absurd regulations in a different subject: Germany requires a license to stream to more than 500 people and they've actually enforced this on streamers. The license can cost €10k.
- suyjuris 5y ago
  > Just an example of the absurd regulations in a different subject: Germany requires a license to stream to more than 500 people and they've actually enforced this on streamers. The license can cost €10k. This information is outdated and misleading. Since 2020, licenses for public broadcast are only required for broadcasts which, averaged over six months, exceed 20000 viewers and have significant importance for the formation of public and private opinion [1]. Prior to this change, some streamers had indeed been forced to acquire such a license (although there were more conditions than just regularly having 500 viewers). Also, licenses for streamers actually cost around 1000-2500 €, instead of the 10000 € you claimed. In addition, there was an exception for cases where this would be an undue hardship [2]. The regulator basically agreed that this was pretty silly, but that it planned to enforce the law as written (as is its job), until it was changed (which it has been). [1] (german) § 54 MStV, https://www.gesetze-bayern.de/Content/Document/MStV-54 https://www.gesetze-bayern.de/Content/Document/MStV-54 [2] (german) https://t3n.de/news/livestreams-rundfunklizenz-1175321/ https://t3n.de/news/livestreams-rundfunklizenz-1175321/

curiousgal 5y ago

I'm always surprised how people in the US immediately lose their shit at the sight of a child locked in a car. Like yes it is dangerous but it does not automatically make the parent the most horrible person to ever exist. https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/parenting/a22724843/kim-brooks-son-legal-battle/ https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/parenting/a22724843/ki...

calsy 5y ago
The idea of an unsupervised child being being cooked in a car as hot as an oven is unsettling to most. Doesn't take long for a child to succumb to the heat. Only couple of months ago in my area a mum had left a 3 year old and baby in the car, walked into her house and fell asleep for an hour. She woke up, realised what happened, ran to the car and the kids were dead. Another more recent incident occurred where a child was left in a day care bus unknowingly by the driver. He did not inspect the seats prior to locking up the bus outside in the sun. The child was found dead when he got back in the bus that afternoon.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  People gather even if the car is on and the AC is clearly on full blast and the blinkers are on clearly indicating that the adult has just left in the last few minutes. My wife was screamed at by someone who thought there was zero risk involved in bringing the little ones through an incredibly busy parking lot where everyone drives SUVs and oversized trucks. It’s as if they couldn’t imagine a situation where the parents have already done the risk analysis and determined it is far less safe walking a pack of kids through the jungle of death machines.
  - calsy 5y ago
    Why are you trying to convince us leaving kids unsupervised in car parks is no big deal? You walk with the child in hand or if you're really concerned just pick them up. Point is there is a responsible parent who is watching and looking after the kids. Parenting isn't easy, its annoying to take kids in for short trip to shops, but you just have to do it.

araneae 5y ago

I feel like this is very different in kind. Are there any other countries that enforce a daily time limit on an activity, whether for children or adults? It seems either an activity (like smoking) is typically banned entirely or allowed; having it be partially allowed like this is difficult to enforce and consequently invites weird and invasive measures like these.

saithound 5y ago
Yes, there are. Examples that immediately come to mind: - Anyone driving a large vehicle for more than 9 hours per day, 56 in a week, and 90 over a two-week period in the European Union. - Adults using a tanning under a sunlamp for more than one cycle in a 24 hour period in many countries (others, such as Australia, did ban them entirely). - Children spending more than 10 hours per day in child care centers in many US states, such as Washington. - Alcohol purchases are limited to certain times of day in many European countries (compare "No games between 10pm and 8am" in China). Many of these are very difficult to enforce, and enforcement benefits from intrusive technology (such as tachographs) and even more so from intrusive AI (e.g. many EU countries were set to implement platforms to monitor truck drivers using AI, until the European Commission's Artificial Intelligence Act forced a change of plans). I also disagree with the previous examples being as different in kind as you seem to think: e.g. the "no home-schooling" requirements, combined with mandatory attendance, still limits children's gaming time to something less than 19 hours on weekdays. Which is different from "no more than 1.5 hours", but only quantitatively, not qualitatively. And it certainly matches "the government does not trust its citizens to raise their own children", which was my main point.
- toomanybeersies 5y ago
  Australia also has limits on heavy vehicle driving hours, and cameras on the main highways to enforce them.
  - noduerme 5y ago
    Plus they have those ridiculous billboards every 10km that say "are you sleepy yet?" Australia's social nudging really freaks me out.