6 ms·

Its also worth noting that often the experience of actually consuming these kinds of things, results in symptoms not that different from actual poisoning. Stoma

Its also worth noting that often the experience of actually consuming these kinds of things, results in symptoms not that different from actual poisoning. Stomach cramps, nausea, the 'spins', double vision. While there is plenty of anecdotal support for the longer term benefits of etheogens, the road to a better understanding of yourself and place in the universe is strewn with people hiding in their beds or under a table. The psychonaughts experience isn't exactly a piece of cake and shouldn't be taken lightly. Likewise, the 'why' of why these things help with issues like depression are obvious to any one who has taken the trip. These kinds of altered states force you to confront demons. They help you because they are >hard< and you have to deal with things. The experience helps with depression because it specifically brings to light the issues and causes of ones depression and you have to deal with them. I'm concerned about the idea of boiling the positive benefits of something like mushrooms into a single compound.

mercer 5y ago
Ha, much appreciate adding psychonaughts to my lexicon
galaxyLogic 5y ago
My guess is that depression is basically caused by the feeling that "nothing changes therefore there is no reason to do anything, which means nothing changes...". But psychedelics are in essence a difference-experience, a changing experience. You are different after that. That proves to you that things do change, and also that there is love because we are all one. But as earlier post pointed out, we don't really know why they do these things, why should they be so beneficial to us?. Let's say they are poison to thwart off plant-eaters. Then why do they work towards GOOD in small doses? Have humans evolved the capability for psychedelic experiences meaning experiences of unity which is a trait that helps survival of the specific species which experiences it?
- an_ko 5y ago
  The effect a natural deterrent causes in species that it didn't evolve to deter is pretty random. Even if the effect is positive sometimes, as long as its presence yields an overall fitness advantage (or at least no particular disadvantage), then evolution preserves it. Like humans can be outright killed by touching some jellyfish, while turtles just eat them. I wonder if to turtles, jellyfish taste pleasurably spicy due to what chemical poisons us, like onions taste for us, which poisons insects. Overall, they're still good deals for the jellyfish and onions, since the traits are preserved.
- acituan 5y ago
  > But as earlier post pointed out, we don't really know why they do these things, why should they be so beneficial to us? Why does St. John’s Wort, passionflower etc have antidepressant effects? Why does penicillin mold produce an antibiotic? Why does gingerols act as anti-emetics? Why do coca leaves, coffee beans give a buzz? There is nothing magical with an active compound to have a specific dose-response curve either.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    > Why does St. John’s Wort, passionflower etc have antidepressant effects? Why does penicillin mold produce an antibiotic? Why does gingerols act as anti-emetics? Why do coca leaves, coffee beans give a buzz? I don't know what listing a bunch of similar mysteries does to make the question less mysterious. Are you implying that these questions can't have answers and everything is unknowable? Is this one of the arguments where someone says that we can't answer your question until we answer every other question first? I don't get it.
    - acituan 5y ago
      The context of the thread is that somehow there is something romantically magical about mushrooms especially for humans. Me (and bunch of other people in the thread) throwing bunch of other compounds at it is to disprove that there is anything necessarily magical or secretly meaningful about them. It is mostly incidental or phenomena not specific to humans, therefore there is not much mysteriousness about it.
      - galaxyLogic 5y ago
        Not magical not romantic but yes mysterious. Or at least interesting. The question is why do psychedelic drugs hit our brains in the peculiar way they do, which also has a therapeutic effect. First why do they cause the experience that they do, and secondly why is that experience therapeutic? I think these are interesting questions without clear answers as of yet. It has been speculated that mushrooms caused religion. Religion is spread all over the world so there must be something "fit" about it. It is as if mushrooms and human societies are in some kind of symbiotic relationship.
pmoriarty 5y ago
"Its also worth noting that often the experience of actually consuming these kinds of things, results in symptoms not that different from actual poisoning. Stomach cramps, nausea, the 'spins', double vision." Those are the easier effects to explain. Much harder is why these compounds cure/treat depression or addiction, make people see infinite beauty or god, enhance their creativity, etc... Not much analogy to poison there.
- azeirah 5y ago
  I think that if I can make an animal who's trying to eat me hallucinate aliens on another plane, the animal kinda... totally forgets that it's trying to eat me. Psychedelics in that sense may be distracting poisons rather than harmful poisons
  - sjg007 5y ago
    It’s the opposite. The spores survive digestion and grow in the feces.
- RosanaAnaDana 5y ago
  Maybe cows enjoy the experience and they help spread the spores.

mercer 5y ago

Ha, much appreciate adding psychonaughts to my lexicon

galaxyLogic 5y ago

My guess is that depression is basically caused by the feeling that "nothing changes therefore there is no reason to do anything, which means nothing changes...". But psychedelics are in essence a difference-experience, a changing experience. You are different after that. That proves to you that things do change, and also that there is love because we are all one. But as earlier post pointed out, we don't really know why they do these things, why should they be so beneficial to us?. Let's say they are poison to thwart off plant-eaters. Then why do they work towards GOOD in small doses? Have humans evolved the capability for psychedelic experiences meaning experiences of unity which is a trait that helps survival of the specific species which experiences it?

an_ko 5y ago
The effect a natural deterrent causes in species that it didn't evolve to deter is pretty random. Even if the effect is positive sometimes, as long as its presence yields an overall fitness advantage (or at least no particular disadvantage), then evolution preserves it. Like humans can be outright killed by touching some jellyfish, while turtles just eat them. I wonder if to turtles, jellyfish taste pleasurably spicy due to what chemical poisons us, like onions taste for us, which poisons insects. Overall, they're still good deals for the jellyfish and onions, since the traits are preserved.
acituan 5y ago
> But as earlier post pointed out, we don't really know why they do these things, why should they be so beneficial to us? Why does St. John’s Wort, passionflower etc have antidepressant effects? Why does penicillin mold produce an antibiotic? Why does gingerols act as anti-emetics? Why do coca leaves, coffee beans give a buzz? There is nothing magical with an active compound to have a specific dose-response curve either.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  > Why does St. John’s Wort, passionflower etc have antidepressant effects? Why does penicillin mold produce an antibiotic? Why does gingerols act as anti-emetics? Why do coca leaves, coffee beans give a buzz? I don't know what listing a bunch of similar mysteries does to make the question less mysterious. Are you implying that these questions can't have answers and everything is unknowable? Is this one of the arguments where someone says that we can't answer your question until we answer every other question first? I don't get it.
  - acituan 5y ago
    The context of the thread is that somehow there is something romantically magical about mushrooms especially for humans. Me (and bunch of other people in the thread) throwing bunch of other compounds at it is to disprove that there is anything necessarily magical or secretly meaningful about them. It is mostly incidental or phenomena not specific to humans, therefore there is not much mysteriousness about it.
    - galaxyLogic 5y ago
      Not magical not romantic but yes mysterious. Or at least interesting. The question is why do psychedelic drugs hit our brains in the peculiar way they do, which also has a therapeutic effect. First why do they cause the experience that they do, and secondly why is that experience therapeutic? I think these are interesting questions without clear answers as of yet. It has been speculated that mushrooms caused religion. Religion is spread all over the world so there must be something "fit" about it. It is as if mushrooms and human societies are in some kind of symbiotic relationship.

pmoriarty 5y ago

"Its also worth noting that often the experience of actually consuming these kinds of things, results in symptoms not that different from actual poisoning. Stomach cramps, nausea, the 'spins', double vision." Those are the easier effects to explain. Much harder is why these compounds cure/treat depression or addiction, make people see infinite beauty or god, enhance their creativity, etc... Not much analogy to poison there.

azeirah 5y ago
I think that if I can make an animal who's trying to eat me hallucinate aliens on another plane, the animal kinda... totally forgets that it's trying to eat me. Psychedelics in that sense may be distracting poisons rather than harmful poisons
- sjg007 5y ago
  It’s the opposite. The spores survive digestion and grow in the feces.
RosanaAnaDana 5y ago
Maybe cows enjoy the experience and they help spread the spores.