8 ms·

The chinese app wechat already does this in private homes for the purpose of enforcing KYC and "misinformation tracking" - you are required to repeat after it,

by ev1 5y ago

The chinese app wechat already does this in private homes for the purpose of enforcing KYC and "misinformation tracking" - you are required to repeat after it, repeat every phoneme/syllable to form a voiceprint (and coincidentally enough to basically train something to replicate your speech), look straight ahead, rotate around your head, and follow its instructions to sign in again. Also, asking two verified-ID mainland china users to "vouch" for you and be responsible for your activities if you are a foreigner. Almost every service in China requires "real name verification" - you can't play games without it, for example. This has been place for several years, https://i.imgur.com/FBrCwuX.jpg https://i.imgur.com/FBrCwuX.jpg

rvnx 5y ago
This verification process exists in Europe as well (it's called liveness verification), example: https://www.jumio.com/technology/live-detection/ https://www.jumio.com/technology/live-detection/
- throwaway744678 5y ago
  The technology exists, right. But have you experienced it anywhere outside of China? I, for one, have not (at least in the UE). I strongly believe that the average western customer is not be willing to go through such a process.
  - rvnx 5y ago
    Yes in Estonia is quite common
  - egeozcan 5y ago
    It's common when applying for a credit online. They also make you hold your ID towards the camera, show the hologram, read some text etc.
  - hobofan 5y ago
    Basically every modern "mobile-first" bank/stock brokerage app, etc. is built on that. With a lot of them there is still a human in the process giving you the instructions (usually from a call center), but it's gradually shifting to tech-only solutions.
  - jamil7 5y ago
    Most (all maybe?) of the new German banks and fintech products seem to offer it as they have no physical branches, you can often open accounts directly from your smartphone. Some will offer a way of identifying yourself via a post office with your passport too.
    - rjzzleep 5y ago
      What the person above means is different. If you open an account, nowadays you have to ask someone that already has a Wechat account to scan a QR code to vouch that you are indeed who you claim to be. It doesn't actually do ID identification though and it doesn't have to be a Chinese mainland user. It can be any other active Wechat account. Full ID Identification only works with a China mainland bank account IIRC. What the person above implies is that the other two are on the hook when you start spreading any Government information. I'd assume that the government would investigate anyone in your friend list if you do that though regardless of whether they verified you or not, so it's kind of a minor detail in my opinion.
      - jamil7 5y ago
        Got it, thanks for clarifying.
      - marderfarker2 5y ago
        Really? I’m outside of China, and signed up for WeChat (for work) but never had to do any of the KYC things. They only took my number to send an OTP. If they ask for KYC in the mainland I suppose it’s understandable since it serves a lot more than a chat app there (payment, SSO for a lot of other services).
        bellyfullofbac 5y ago
        When I tried to install WeChat because I was going to travel to China, it kept making me verify my account repeatedly, I guess it was because my phone was rooted...
      - kgwgk 5y ago
  - hulitu 5y ago
    You cannot activate a sim card in Germany without proof of ID
    - gambiting 5y ago
      That's hardly comparable though. No one is taking your voice print and biometric details to match everything you ever say or do against you just to activate a sim card. Not to mention that buying a travel sim card that doesn't require ID is absolutely trivial, or even getting one shipped from any other European country which doesn't have this requirement is simple and easy. Yeah it's a faff, but at least no one will accuse you of being an enemy of the state if you do this like trying to avoid tagging in China.
      - francescovv 5y ago
        > No one is taking your voice print and biometric details Some Italian cell operators do. For example, when you are buying a new sim card for Iliad, you do this in front of an automated kiosk where you have to scan your ID, then face camera and say outloud "my name is Insert Your Name Here, and I would like to make a phone service contract with Iliad".
        gambiting 5y ago
        Ok, I stand corrected then :-) Had no idea this was a thing.
        toomanybeersies 5y ago
        Is that for voice printing purposes, or is it in lieu of signing your name on a paper contract?
      - rotebeete 5y ago
        > No one is taking your voice print SIM cards are used for transmitting voice in an insecure fashion, so you can't be sure. Some voice codecs are even designed to do something very similiar to fingerprinting voices. > No one is taking your [...] biometric details They were already taken when you had¹ to get the ID in the first place. ¹ The federal republic directly adopted laws from nazi germany requiring ID for every citizen. This law was initially introduced to acquire data about jews and people fit for military service. > to match everything you ever say or do against you just to activate a sim card This was never about surveillance by private entities! Federal agencys can match everything you say based on the fact that the SIM card in your portable bug is linked directly to you. > but at least no one will accuse you of being an enemy of the state if you do this like trying to avoid tagging in China. You can be certain that you end up in a database if you use a foreign SIM card from a non-KYC-country for a long period of time in a residential area. Your only defence is your network provider not cooperating unless forced by law. Germany is being turned into a surveillance state bit by bit and I am fed up by people trying to defend it!
  - cercatrova 5y ago
    Yes, in the US, when signing up for cryptocurrency related services like Coinbase or Binance I believe.
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    I used it to access my medical records from the UK without actually going to the UK. I thought that was reasonable, but it didn't occur to me that reading the numbers was enough to train an AI to reproduce my voice. Now I'm less sure.
  - maccard 5y ago
    Yep, in the UK. My solicitor required it for kyc for a house purchase during the pandemic
    - cameronh90 5y ago
      Nice. Mine required me to send them certified originals and a handwritten declaration through the post. Seems I need a more tech-savvy solicitor...
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        Seems you are in fine hands.
  - StreamBright 5y ago
    Yes, I have.
  - cameronh90 5y ago
    I've signed up for several bank accounts lately (due to the 85k insurance limit on UK banks). All of them had this "liveness verification". I think it's actually a legal requirement in the UK if they wish to allow you to sign up online.
  - wrycoder 5y ago
    I called Fidelity in the US about my account, and the agent told me the system was taking a voice print, to be used to verify me the next time I called in.
    - atatatat 5y ago
      Did you tell them to opt you out...?
      - wrycoder 5y ago
        My guess is you can't.
  - alickz 5y ago
    I've had to add this exact functionality ("Look left and repeat these numbers") as part of KYC for a mobile app similar to Revolut. This is in conjunction with ID scanning. I think this functionality was necessary as part of complying with KYC laws. And AFAIK WeChat has very similar functionality to Revolut (among much more) so even if the app was non-Chinese (e.g. European), it would need a similar flow.
  - lobocinza 5y ago
    I believe that the average customer anywhere just don't care. I care but nonetheless did go through such a process as it was somewhat required for me to pay taxes on Brazil using 'Gov.br' SSI app.
poisonheader 5y ago
KYC?
- dahauns28 5y ago
  Know your customer Basically identifying your customer and confirming their identity, e.g. via a video call or at a post office etc.
  - BBC-vs-neolibs 5y ago
    Knowing intimately your customer.
  - EGreg 5y ago
    Know them so well, you can deepfake them later and make their avatar say whatever you want. Nice job if you can get it! (Kind of like the scarier version of the store cashier stealing your credit card digits - because you can’t just order a new one.)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- slumdev 5y ago
  "Know Your Customer" In the West, KYC means that a bank is going to ask to see your ID before letting you open an account. In China, KYC means that, in order to use something as pedestrian as social media, you have to let the CCP AI dragnet build a profile that can be used to surveil you for the rest of your life.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Wechat is basically a bank as you can use it to send money, hence KYC. If all the CCP wanted was to build a profile they'd just ask for ID and then scoop up every call you make.
    - bordercases 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
swiley 5y ago
I wonder if it's even possible for Chinese citizens to play rouge/nethack.
- alisonkisk 5y ago
  China is the last rouge world superpower, and also rogue.
  - dylan604 5y ago
    Are you discounting that Russia is rogue or a superpower?
    - mannerheim 5y ago
      Russia isn't rouge, i.e., red.
  - wrycoder 5y ago
    Cute, but there's lots of rouge around the world - it's even popular in the USA these days.
_flux 5y ago
As privacy invading it is, I can easily see how this would be effective means to curb bad behavior online, such as trolling or spamming—or worse.
- dewey 5y ago
  > As privacy invading it is, I can easily see how this would be effective means to curb bad behavior online, such as trolling or spamming—or worse. I'm not so sure about that, reading Facebook comment threads on news articles clearly shows that a real name policy isn't really stopping people from misbehaving online.
  - _flux 5y ago
    If Facebook isn't able to make money from moderating such content, then there's no reason to think they would do it. Might a real name policy have toned down the communication that lead to case Tenacity https://github.com/tenacityteam/tenacity/issues/99 https://github.com/tenacityteam/tenacity/issues/99 , though?
- MereInterest 5y ago
  That can already be done through paid accounts and moderation. There is zero excuse for this level of privacy invasion.
- yonaguska 5y ago
  Hahahahahaha, I'm sorry. This is a ridiculous take. It sounds as if you are justifying handing over your entire digital identity, which includes given someone so much information about yourself that you could be easily impersonated, is justifiable because it will cut down on online trolling? Not to mention, you are giving all of this information to a regime that regularly "disappears" people for dissenting stances, and is actually running literal concentration camps.
  - seizethegdgap 5y ago
    Nothing in the post you replied to was a justification, and in fact starts with "As privacy-invading as it is".
jacquesm 5y ago
Which ever service implements this can be sure to have seen the last of me.
- atatatat 5y ago
  You probably play/have played games owned by these companies.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    I probably didn't.

by ev1 5y ago

rvnx 5y ago

This verification process exists in Europe as well (it's called liveness verification), example: https://www.jumio.com/technology/live-detection/ https://www.jumio.com/technology/live-detection/

throwaway744678 5y ago
The technology exists, right. But have you experienced it anywhere outside of China? I, for one, have not (at least in the UE). I strongly believe that the average western customer is not be willing to go through such a process.
- rvnx 5y ago
  Yes in Estonia is quite common
- egeozcan 5y ago
  It's common when applying for a credit online. They also make you hold your ID towards the camera, show the hologram, read some text etc.
- hobofan 5y ago
  Basically every modern "mobile-first" bank/stock brokerage app, etc. is built on that. With a lot of them there is still a human in the process giving you the instructions (usually from a call center), but it's gradually shifting to tech-only solutions.
- jamil7 5y ago
  Most (all maybe?) of the new German banks and fintech products seem to offer it as they have no physical branches, you can often open accounts directly from your smartphone. Some will offer a way of identifying yourself via a post office with your passport too.
  - rjzzleep 5y ago
    What the person above means is different. If you open an account, nowadays you have to ask someone that already has a Wechat account to scan a QR code to vouch that you are indeed who you claim to be. It doesn't actually do ID identification though and it doesn't have to be a Chinese mainland user. It can be any other active Wechat account. Full ID Identification only works with a China mainland bank account IIRC. What the person above implies is that the other two are on the hook when you start spreading any Government information. I'd assume that the government would investigate anyone in your friend list if you do that though regardless of whether they verified you or not, so it's kind of a minor detail in my opinion.
    - jamil7 5y ago
      Got it, thanks for clarifying.
    - marderfarker2 5y ago
      Really? I’m outside of China, and signed up for WeChat (for work) but never had to do any of the KYC things. They only took my number to send an OTP. If they ask for KYC in the mainland I suppose it’s understandable since it serves a lot more than a chat app there (payment, SSO for a lot of other services).
      - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
        When I tried to install WeChat because I was going to travel to China, it kept making me verify my account repeatedly, I guess it was because my phone was rooted...
    - kgwgk 5y ago
- hulitu 5y ago
  You cannot activate a sim card in Germany without proof of ID
  - gambiting 5y ago
    That's hardly comparable though. No one is taking your voice print and biometric details to match everything you ever say or do against you just to activate a sim card. Not to mention that buying a travel sim card that doesn't require ID is absolutely trivial, or even getting one shipped from any other European country which doesn't have this requirement is simple and easy. Yeah it's a faff, but at least no one will accuse you of being an enemy of the state if you do this like trying to avoid tagging in China.
    - francescovv 5y ago
      > No one is taking your voice print and biometric details Some Italian cell operators do. For example, when you are buying a new sim card for Iliad, you do this in front of an automated kiosk where you have to scan your ID, then face camera and say outloud "my name is Insert Your Name Here, and I would like to make a phone service contract with Iliad".
      - gambiting 5y ago
        Ok, I stand corrected then :-) Had no idea this was a thing.
      - toomanybeersies 5y ago
        Is that for voice printing purposes, or is it in lieu of signing your name on a paper contract?
    - rotebeete 5y ago
      > No one is taking your voice print SIM cards are used for transmitting voice in an insecure fashion, so you can't be sure. Some voice codecs are even designed to do something very similiar to fingerprinting voices. > No one is taking your [...] biometric details They were already taken when you had¹ to get the ID in the first place. ¹ The federal republic directly adopted laws from nazi germany requiring ID for every citizen. This law was initially introduced to acquire data about jews and people fit for military service. > to match everything you ever say or do against you just to activate a sim card This was never about surveillance by private entities! Federal agencys can match everything you say based on the fact that the SIM card in your portable bug is linked directly to you. > but at least no one will accuse you of being an enemy of the state if you do this like trying to avoid tagging in China. You can be certain that you end up in a database if you use a foreign SIM card from a non-KYC-country for a long period of time in a residential area. Your only defence is your network provider not cooperating unless forced by law. Germany is being turned into a surveillance state bit by bit and I am fed up by people trying to defend it!
- cercatrova 5y ago
  Yes, in the US, when signing up for cryptocurrency related services like Coinbase or Binance I believe.
- Symbiote 5y ago
  I used it to access my medical records from the UK without actually going to the UK. I thought that was reasonable, but it didn't occur to me that reading the numbers was enough to train an AI to reproduce my voice. Now I'm less sure.
- maccard 5y ago
  Yep, in the UK. My solicitor required it for kyc for a house purchase during the pandemic
  - cameronh90 5y ago
    Nice. Mine required me to send them certified originals and a handwritten declaration through the post. Seems I need a more tech-savvy solicitor...
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Seems you are in fine hands.
- StreamBright 5y ago
  Yes, I have.
- cameronh90 5y ago
  I've signed up for several bank accounts lately (due to the 85k insurance limit on UK banks). All of them had this "liveness verification". I think it's actually a legal requirement in the UK if they wish to allow you to sign up online.
- wrycoder 5y ago
  I called Fidelity in the US about my account, and the agent told me the system was taking a voice print, to be used to verify me the next time I called in.
  - atatatat 5y ago
    Did you tell them to opt you out...?
    - wrycoder 5y ago
      My guess is you can't.
- alickz 5y ago
  I've had to add this exact functionality ("Look left and repeat these numbers") as part of KYC for a mobile app similar to Revolut. This is in conjunction with ID scanning. I think this functionality was necessary as part of complying with KYC laws. And AFAIK WeChat has very similar functionality to Revolut (among much more) so even if the app was non-Chinese (e.g. European), it would need a similar flow.
- lobocinza 5y ago
  I believe that the average customer anywhere just don't care. I care but nonetheless did go through such a process as it was somewhat required for me to pay taxes on Brazil using 'Gov.br' SSI app.

poisonheader 5y ago

KYC?

dahauns28 5y ago
Know your customer Basically identifying your customer and confirming their identity, e.g. via a video call or at a post office etc.
- BBC-vs-neolibs 5y ago
  Knowing intimately your customer.
- EGreg 5y ago
  Know them so well, you can deepfake them later and make their avatar say whatever you want. Nice job if you can get it! (Kind of like the scarier version of the store cashier stealing your credit card digits - because you can’t just order a new one.)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
slumdev 5y ago
"Know Your Customer" In the West, KYC means that a bank is going to ask to see your ID before letting you open an account. In China, KYC means that, in order to use something as pedestrian as social media, you have to let the CCP AI dragnet build a profile that can be used to surveil you for the rest of your life.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Wechat is basically a bank as you can use it to send money, hence KYC. If all the CCP wanted was to build a profile they'd just ask for ID and then scoop up every call you make.
  - bordercases 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

swiley 5y ago

I wonder if it's even possible for Chinese citizens to play rouge/nethack.

alisonkisk 5y ago
China is the last rouge world superpower, and also rogue.
- dylan604 5y ago
  Are you discounting that Russia is rogue or a superpower?
  - mannerheim 5y ago
    Russia isn't rouge, i.e., red.
- wrycoder 5y ago
  Cute, but there's lots of rouge around the world - it's even popular in the USA these days.

_flux 5y ago

As privacy invading it is, I can easily see how this would be effective means to curb bad behavior online, such as trolling or spamming—or worse.

dewey 5y ago
> As privacy invading it is, I can easily see how this would be effective means to curb bad behavior online, such as trolling or spamming—or worse. I'm not so sure about that, reading Facebook comment threads on news articles clearly shows that a real name policy isn't really stopping people from misbehaving online.
- _flux 5y ago
  If Facebook isn't able to make money from moderating such content, then there's no reason to think they would do it. Might a real name policy have toned down the communication that lead to case Tenacity https://github.com/tenacityteam/tenacity/issues/99 https://github.com/tenacityteam/tenacity/issues/99 , though?
MereInterest 5y ago
That can already be done through paid accounts and moderation. There is zero excuse for this level of privacy invasion.
yonaguska 5y ago
Hahahahahaha, I'm sorry. This is a ridiculous take. It sounds as if you are justifying handing over your entire digital identity, which includes given someone so much information about yourself that you could be easily impersonated, is justifiable because it will cut down on online trolling? Not to mention, you are giving all of this information to a regime that regularly "disappears" people for dissenting stances, and is actually running literal concentration camps.
- seizethegdgap 5y ago
  Nothing in the post you replied to was a justification, and in fact starts with "As privacy-invading as it is".

jacquesm 5y ago

Which ever service implements this can be sure to have seen the last of me.

atatatat 5y ago
You probably play/have played games owned by these companies.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  I probably didn't.