4 ms·

There are a lot of compounds that are poisonous to most species, but where some species have adapted defences against them, rendering them harmless. (IIRC capsa

by derefr 5y ago

There are a lot of compounds that are poisonous to most species, but where some species have adapted defences against them, rendering them harmless. (IIRC capsaicin is like this in humans.) There are also compounds that are toxic to basically every animal species for low-level common-animal-ancestor reasons, but which exist in the plants/fungi they exist in, in concentrations dictated by what’s required to kill/ward off the particular predators that plant/fungus had in its evolutionary environment. Aspirin, caffeine, nicotine, cocaine — these are all effective pesticides. They kill or severely harm insects. But we’re orders of magnitude larger than insects, so they have orders-of-magnitude less effect on us (unless we make orders-of-magnitude more concentrated doses of them, of course). That change in quantity, is reflected by a change in quality — i.e. having “a little bit” of caffeine does very different things to a body than having a lethal dose of caffeine.

RosanaAnaDana 5y ago
Its also worth noting that often the experience of actually consuming these kinds of things, results in symptoms not that different from actual poisoning. Stomach cramps, nausea, the 'spins', double vision. While there is plenty of anecdotal support for the longer term benefits of etheogens, the road to a better understanding of yourself and place in the universe is strewn with people hiding in their beds or under a table. The psychonaughts experience isn't exactly a piece of cake and shouldn't be taken lightly. Likewise, the 'why' of why these things help with issues like depression are obvious to any one who has taken the trip. These kinds of altered states force you to confront demons. They help you because they are >hard< and you have to deal with things. The experience helps with depression because it specifically brings to light the issues and causes of ones depression and you have to deal with them. I'm concerned about the idea of boiling the positive benefits of something like mushrooms into a single compound.
- mercer 5y ago
  Ha, much appreciate adding psychonaughts to my lexicon
- galaxyLogic 5y ago
  My guess is that depression is basically caused by the feeling that "nothing changes therefore there is no reason to do anything, which means nothing changes...". But psychedelics are in essence a difference-experience, a changing experience. You are different after that. That proves to you that things do change, and also that there is love because we are all one. But as earlier post pointed out, we don't really know why they do these things, why should they be so beneficial to us?. Let's say they are poison to thwart off plant-eaters. Then why do they work towards GOOD in small doses? Have humans evolved the capability for psychedelic experiences meaning experiences of unity which is a trait that helps survival of the specific species which experiences it?
  - an_ko 5y ago
    The effect a natural deterrent causes in species that it didn't evolve to deter is pretty random. Even if the effect is positive sometimes, as long as its presence yields an overall fitness advantage (or at least no particular disadvantage), then evolution preserves it. Like humans can be outright killed by touching some jellyfish, while turtles just eat them. I wonder if to turtles, jellyfish taste pleasurably spicy due to what chemical poisons us, like onions taste for us, which poisons insects. Overall, they're still good deals for the jellyfish and onions, since the traits are preserved.
  - acituan 5y ago
    > But as earlier post pointed out, we don't really know why they do these things, why should they be so beneficial to us? Why does St. John’s Wort, passionflower etc have antidepressant effects? Why does penicillin mold produce an antibiotic? Why does gingerols act as anti-emetics? Why do coca leaves, coffee beans give a buzz? There is nothing magical with an active compound to have a specific dose-response curve either.
    - pessimizer 5y ago
      > Why does St. John’s Wort, passionflower etc have antidepressant effects? Why does penicillin mold produce an antibiotic? Why does gingerols act as anti-emetics? Why do coca leaves, coffee beans give a buzz? I don't know what listing a bunch of similar mysteries does to make the question less mysterious. Are you implying that these questions can't have answers and everything is unknowable? Is this one of the arguments where someone says that we can't answer your question until we answer every other question first? I don't get it.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  "Its also worth noting that often the experience of actually consuming these kinds of things, results in symptoms not that different from actual poisoning. Stomach cramps, nausea, the 'spins', double vision." Those are the easier effects to explain. Much harder is why these compounds cure/treat depression or addiction, make people see infinite beauty or god, enhance their creativity, etc... Not much analogy to poison there.
  - azeirah 5y ago
    I think that if I can make an animal who's trying to eat me hallucinate aliens on another plane, the animal kinda... totally forgets that it's trying to eat me. Psychedelics in that sense may be distracting poisons rather than harmful poisons
    - sjg007 5y ago
      It’s the opposite. The spores survive digestion and grow in the feces.
  - RosanaAnaDana 5y ago
    Maybe cows enjoy the experience and they help spread the spores.
Gatsky 5y ago
Thanks for this insight. Searching it up there is evidence that psilocybin affects insect behaviour in a way that benefits the fungus that produces it [1]. This provides an explanation for how a neuro-modifying and low toxicity molecule could evolve. Nevertheless, it still seems quite remarkable that such a molecule could coincidentally send a big mammal on a trip through the doors of perception. [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1754504819300352 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S175450481...
- wombatmobile 5y ago
  > Nevertheless, it still seems quite remarkable that such a molecule could coincidentally send a big mammal on a trip through the doors of perception. Perhaps at first thought, yes, because mammals, insects and mushrooms are such different things. To put it in perspective though, they share more than 2 billion years of evolutionary history when you look past their last common ancestor. That M1 CPU in your new MacBook is a much mightier beast than the little black ICs in your grandfathers transistor radio, but they both rely on the same fundamental NPN silicone junction property. And that’s only 60 years of evolution.
Rendello 5y ago
> IIRC capsaicin is like this in humans. Capsaicin triggers the heat-sensing nerves in mammals specifically. Scientists think this is because birds disperse the seeds well after consumption, while us mammals tend to crush the seeds with our grinding teeth. Peppers don't want to kill us, they just want to hurt as real bad ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsaicin#Natural_function https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsaicin#Natural_function

by derefr 5y ago

RosanaAnaDana 5y ago

Its also worth noting that often the experience of actually consuming these kinds of things, results in symptoms not that different from actual poisoning. Stomach cramps, nausea, the 'spins', double vision. While there is plenty of anecdotal support for the longer term benefits of etheogens, the road to a better understanding of yourself and place in the universe is strewn with people hiding in their beds or under a table. The psychonaughts experience isn't exactly a piece of cake and shouldn't be taken lightly. Likewise, the 'why' of why these things help with issues like depression are obvious to any one who has taken the trip. These kinds of altered states force you to confront demons. They help you because they are >hard< and you have to deal with things. The experience helps with depression because it specifically brings to light the issues and causes of ones depression and you have to deal with them. I'm concerned about the idea of boiling the positive benefits of something like mushrooms into a single compound.

mercer 5y ago
Ha, much appreciate adding psychonaughts to my lexicon
galaxyLogic 5y ago
My guess is that depression is basically caused by the feeling that "nothing changes therefore there is no reason to do anything, which means nothing changes...". But psychedelics are in essence a difference-experience, a changing experience. You are different after that. That proves to you that things do change, and also that there is love because we are all one. But as earlier post pointed out, we don't really know why they do these things, why should they be so beneficial to us?. Let's say they are poison to thwart off plant-eaters. Then why do they work towards GOOD in small doses? Have humans evolved the capability for psychedelic experiences meaning experiences of unity which is a trait that helps survival of the specific species which experiences it?
- an_ko 5y ago
  The effect a natural deterrent causes in species that it didn't evolve to deter is pretty random. Even if the effect is positive sometimes, as long as its presence yields an overall fitness advantage (or at least no particular disadvantage), then evolution preserves it. Like humans can be outright killed by touching some jellyfish, while turtles just eat them. I wonder if to turtles, jellyfish taste pleasurably spicy due to what chemical poisons us, like onions taste for us, which poisons insects. Overall, they're still good deals for the jellyfish and onions, since the traits are preserved.
- acituan 5y ago
  > But as earlier post pointed out, we don't really know why they do these things, why should they be so beneficial to us? Why does St. John’s Wort, passionflower etc have antidepressant effects? Why does penicillin mold produce an antibiotic? Why does gingerols act as anti-emetics? Why do coca leaves, coffee beans give a buzz? There is nothing magical with an active compound to have a specific dose-response curve either.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    > Why does St. John’s Wort, passionflower etc have antidepressant effects? Why does penicillin mold produce an antibiotic? Why does gingerols act as anti-emetics? Why do coca leaves, coffee beans give a buzz? I don't know what listing a bunch of similar mysteries does to make the question less mysterious. Are you implying that these questions can't have answers and everything is unknowable? Is this one of the arguments where someone says that we can't answer your question until we answer every other question first? I don't get it.
pmoriarty 5y ago
"Its also worth noting that often the experience of actually consuming these kinds of things, results in symptoms not that different from actual poisoning. Stomach cramps, nausea, the 'spins', double vision." Those are the easier effects to explain. Much harder is why these compounds cure/treat depression or addiction, make people see infinite beauty or god, enhance their creativity, etc... Not much analogy to poison there.
- azeirah 5y ago
  I think that if I can make an animal who's trying to eat me hallucinate aliens on another plane, the animal kinda... totally forgets that it's trying to eat me. Psychedelics in that sense may be distracting poisons rather than harmful poisons
  - sjg007 5y ago
    It’s the opposite. The spores survive digestion and grow in the feces.
- RosanaAnaDana 5y ago
  Maybe cows enjoy the experience and they help spread the spores.

Gatsky 5y ago

Thanks for this insight. Searching it up there is evidence that psilocybin affects insect behaviour in a way that benefits the fungus that produces it [1]. This provides an explanation for how a neuro-modifying and low toxicity molecule could evolve. Nevertheless, it still seems quite remarkable that such a molecule could coincidentally send a big mammal on a trip through the doors of perception. [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1754504819300352 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S175450481...

wombatmobile 5y ago
> Nevertheless, it still seems quite remarkable that such a molecule could coincidentally send a big mammal on a trip through the doors of perception. Perhaps at first thought, yes, because mammals, insects and mushrooms are such different things. To put it in perspective though, they share more than 2 billion years of evolutionary history when you look past their last common ancestor. That M1 CPU in your new MacBook is a much mightier beast than the little black ICs in your grandfathers transistor radio, but they both rely on the same fundamental NPN silicone junction property. And that’s only 60 years of evolution.

Rendello 5y ago

> IIRC capsaicin is like this in humans. Capsaicin triggers the heat-sensing nerves in mammals specifically. Scientists think this is because birds disperse the seeds well after consumption, while us mammals tend to crush the seeds with our grinding teeth. Peppers don't want to kill us, they just want to hurt as real bad ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsaicin#Natural_function https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsaicin#Natural_function