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(I work in healthcare) There is something very odd or perhaps magical about these agents. I don’t really understand why they exist. What purpose do they serve t
by Gatsky 5y ago
(I work in healthcare) There is something very odd or perhaps magical about these agents. I don’t really understand why they exist. What purpose do they serve to the mushroom? And how is it that similar agents exist in fungi, plants (ayehuasca) and amphibians (DMT from toad venom)? And also how do they produce such dramatic effects (generally beneficial when used judiciously) in humans with seemingly very little toxicity? There are basically no other molecules like this in the biosphere.
- selcuka 5y agoIt is also possible that the answer lies somewhere in our evolution, not the mushroom's.
- rantwasp 5y agoit’s not really though. The mushrooms evolved independently a neurotransmitter that also just happens to work on humans. Fungi and humans have a common ancestor roughly 450 million years ago. It’s also possible that they evolved this by accident and the mushrooms that were mostly successful got carried away further and reproduced more because of this secondary utilization humans had for them.
- jlawson 5y agoNot just humans - animals may respond to these compounds as well. Like humans, or in a different way.
- wskish 5y agoTerrance McKenna entertained us with the theory that psilocybin catalyzed human language "on the mushroom dotted plains of Africa". https://www.amazon.com/Food-Gods-Original-Knowledge-Evolution/dp/0553371304?tag=inverse03-20 https://www.amazon.com/Food-Gods-Original-Knowledge-Evolutio... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terence_McKenna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terence_McKenna https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdaMVuswNrg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdaMVuswNrg
- rantwasp 5y agoyup. The Stoned Ape theory.
- __blockcipher__ 5y agoThe “stoned ape” theory is one of the dumbest theories ever invented. I say that as a big McKenna fan - he’s a great orator and very insightful, but his theory is very transparently a way to elevate the perceived importance of shrooms. There’s a common trip motif that shrooms make one “more human” and the “theory” is just a projection of that. Mechanistically it just doesn’t make any sense. The reason mushrooms make us trip is because there’s already a network there that they “talk” to (the 5ht_2a receptor system) And how exactly would non-linguistic animals suddenly gain linguistic ability? They better hope everyone around them is tripping on the perfect dose too otherwise they’re just gonna perceive it as meaningless babblimg
- pmoriarty 5y ago"The reason mushrooms make us trip is because there’s already a network there that they “talk” to (the 5ht_2a receptor system)" But how does binding to the 5-HT[2A] receptor lead to, say, communing with one's dead mother, or to forgiveness of oneself or one's abusive father, or to a creative breakthrough on a problem you've been struggling with for months or years, or to an encounter with one's god, or to the realization that you/we are god, or to curing/treating depression or addiction, etc? These are open questions that science doesn't have very satisfying answers to yet.
- __blockcipher__ 5y ago> These are open questions that science doesn't have very satisfying answers to yet. Agreed. — It’s nowhere near complete but one place to start is psychedelic (a) increase communication across/between disparate brain regions, (b) synchronize the various waves of brain activity into a single vibration, and (c) reduces the threshold at which pattern matching / classifier networks will fire (thus the increased visual acuity at small doses and pareidolia and other visual effects at high doses) I remember a study that explained (b), can’t remember anything else about it though :/ — EDIT: https://ai.googleblog.com/2015/06/inceptionism-going-deeper-into-neural.html?m=1 https://ai.googleblog.com/2015/06/inceptionism-going-deeper-... is also great to think about. DeepDream produces very psychedelic images and the bit about reversing the network and having it recurse on pattern matching its on output to “massage” the raw input into alignment with a schema (akin to feeding output back into input) is very relevant
- smt88 5y agoCouldn't you ask the same thing about aspirin or literally any other naturally occurring drug with few side effects? > And also how do they produce such dramatic effects (generally beneficial when used judiciously) in humans with seemingly very little toxicity? While toxicity may be low, it's very unlikely we'll find few side effects. The reason we don't know many ill effects of the drugs used in small doses is that we haven't studied them properly yet (meaning at a population level over time).
- ihunter2839 5y agoIsn't DMT biosynthesized endogenously in most mammals? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31249368/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31249368/ I think it would be fascinating to know more about the anabolic/metabolic pathways that create these molecules. Could it be we are seeing similar products created as mutations of core synthetic pathways?
- pmoriarty 5y agoThe article you link to is about NN-DMT. It's important to understand that the venom of Bufo alvarius (the Colorado River toad)[1] contains 5-MeO-DMT, not NN-DMT. It is NN-DMT that is colloquially known as "DMT", and the two substances should NOT be confused. They are very different in effect, though closely related chemically. 5-MeO-DMT is widely considered to be by far the most powerful psychedelic on the planet. NN-DMT is considered to be much more powerful than traditional psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin, but still a pale shadow compared to 5-MeO-DMT. NN-DMT is a lot more visual than 5-MeO-DMT, while the latter is considered to be much more likely to lead to states of non-dual awareness and ego-death. For more information on 5-MeO-DMT see: [2] Something else to note about the bufo alvarius venom: these toads are under threat and might well go extinct because they're being recklessly exploited for their venom.[3] Furthermore, their venom contains a lot of other compounds apart from 5-MeO-DMT, some of which are known to be toxic when ingested. So it should always be smoked, never ingested! Even when smoked the venom could cause health problems for people with heart conditions. The synthetic form of 5-MeO-DMT only consists of 5-MeO-DMT itself, so has none of these problems, though people with heart conditions should probably still avoid even the synthetic version. Finally, some people who style themselves "DMT shamans" use very dangerous practices like pouring water in the mouths of people who are essentially unconscious under the influence of 5-MeO-DMT, mixing drugs, slapping and kicking people under the influence, and covering their mouth and nose... fatalities have resulted from these dangerous practices.[4] So if you are considering trying this substance very carefully vet who you do it with! I strongly recommend reading and following the guidelines from The Conclave.[5] [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River_toad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_River_toad [2] - https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/5-meo-dmt https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/5-meo-dmt [3] - https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidcarpenter/2021/02/02/psychedelic-toads-pushed-to-the-limit-conservationists-urge-synthetic-5-meo-dmt-option/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidcarpenter/2021/02/02/psych... [4] - https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86872 https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86872 [5] - https://theconclave.info/ https://theconclave.info/
- derefr 5y agoThere are a lot of compounds that are poisonous to most species, but where some species have adapted defences against them, rendering them harmless. (IIRC capsaicin is like this in humans.) There are also compounds that are toxic to basically every animal species for low-level common-animal-ancestor reasons, but which exist in the plants/fungi they exist in, in concentrations dictated by what’s required to kill/ward off the particular predators that plant/fungus had in its evolutionary environment. Aspirin, caffeine, nicotine, cocaine — these are all effective pesticides. They kill or severely harm insects. But we’re orders of magnitude larger than insects, so they have orders-of-magnitude less effect on us (unless we make orders-of-magnitude more concentrated doses of them, of course). That change in quantity, is reflected by a change in quality — i.e. having “a little bit” of caffeine does very different things to a body than having a lethal dose of caffeine.
- RosanaAnaDana 5y agoIts also worth noting that often the experience of actually consuming these kinds of things, results in symptoms not that different from actual poisoning. Stomach cramps, nausea, the 'spins', double vision. While there is plenty of anecdotal support for the longer term benefits of etheogens, the road to a better understanding of yourself and place in the universe is strewn with people hiding in their beds or under a table. The psychonaughts experience isn't exactly a piece of cake and shouldn't be taken lightly. Likewise, the 'why' of why these things help with issues like depression are obvious to any one who has taken the trip. These kinds of altered states force you to confront demons. They help you because they are >hard< and you have to deal with things. The experience helps with depression because it specifically brings to light the issues and causes of ones depression and you have to deal with them. I'm concerned about the idea of boiling the positive benefits of something like mushrooms into a single compound.
- mercer 5y agoHa, much appreciate adding psychonaughts to my lexicon
- galaxyLogic 5y agoMy guess is that depression is basically caused by the feeling that "nothing changes therefore there is no reason to do anything, which means nothing changes...". But psychedelics are in essence a difference-experience, a changing experience. You are different after that. That proves to you that things do change, and also that there is love because we are all one. But as earlier post pointed out, we don't really know why they do these things, why should they be so beneficial to us?. Let's say they are poison to thwart off plant-eaters. Then why do they work towards GOOD in small doses? Have humans evolved the capability for psychedelic experiences meaning experiences of unity which is a trait that helps survival of the specific species which experiences it?
- pmoriarty 5y ago"What purpose do they serve to the mushroom? And how is it that similar agents exist in fungi, plants (ayehuasca) and amphibians (DMT from toad venom)? And also how do they produce such dramatic effects (generally beneficial when used judiciously) in humans with seemingly very little toxicity?" These are some of the most important and fascinating open questions regarding these substances, the answers to which have the potential to revolutionize our understanding of the mind and mental health. Unfortunately, at the glacial pace that human studies in to psychedelics are proceeding[1], we will probably have to wait a very long time to find out. Meanwhile, there are religious answers to these questions, as many psychedelic users consider these substances, plants, and animals sacred or even divine. Other theories, regarding psilocybin mushrooms, for instance, have been that they are some sort of alien beings who are trying to communicate vast amounts of information to humans or trying to influence human evolution. Similarly, I've heard theories that nature or "Mother Earth" is communicating through these substances, plants, and animals to humans to try to stop the environmental destruction they are causing, etc. Materialists, physicalists, or naturalists[2] might scoff at such explanations (especially if they've never had strong psychedelic experiences, though sometimes even then), but I believe that it's likely that a great religious revival is heralded by the renewed interest and widespread use of psychedelics. Some have argued that psychedelics were the original cause of some if not all the great religions, and plenty of new religions are being inspired by psychedelic use all the time.. so such religious/non-materialistic/supernatural explanations and more are likely to become more and more widespread in the future. [1] - While the popular view is that psychedelic research is running full steam ahead since we're in the so-called Psychedelic Renaissance, the unfortunate fact is that human studies of psychedelics are still very difficult and time-consuming to get approval for, and there really aren't that many. [2] - https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physicalism/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physicalism/ and https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/naturalism/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/naturalism/
- mathattack 5y agoIf they are beneficial to us, and we grow the fungi, then it’s beneficial to them too.
- unparagoned 5y agoWe co-evolved with plants, many of the healthy chemical parts in plants were once evolved to be poisons or deterrents. Also the common biological base means that one plant creates dopamine and serotonin.
- failwhaleshark 5y agoThe reasons are complicated and evolutionarily symbiotic. Lure a "pollinator" to protect and spread it. Avocados were the diet of some unknown animal that no longer exists. Avocados shouldn't exist except for humans preserving and exploiting them. Well, look at capsicum. Birds can't taste it but mammals can. Even so, most deer and some humans sure do like jalapeños. Some compounds are deadly poisons to particular predators while merely annoyances to others. Beyond deadly poisons, there are deterrents like emetics, anticoagulants, dissociatives, and paralytics aimed at defending from particular predators. These are evolutionarily-conserved because they add to the fitness of a species. Nature is a hacker: it reuses (mutations) a lot of pathways and molecules for different purposes. We just hack compounds out of nature intended for other functions that also happen to serve our purposes at therapeutic doses.
- akomtu 5y agoA crazy idea: our brain is a fungi-like plant and even uses same chemicals in neurotransmitters.
- Y_Y 5y agoI think my brain might be a truffle.
- pvaldes 5y agoWe can dismiss this easily. Fungi and plants were treated in the same category some thousand years ago, but times changed and now are categorized by biologists as new and very different creatures deserving its entire kingdom. The old concept of 'plants' has split into several unrelated lineages. Fungi have a easily recognizable and unique cell structure than neither animals, nor plants have, so can't be the origin of our brains.
- daddylongstroke 5y agoFungi are the origins of all creatures on earth, humans included it seems. As far as I know, it's still the oldest identified complex organism on this planet.
- pvaldes 5y ago> Fungi are the origins of all creatures on earth, humans included Bacteria are older. Nobody knows if that fossil is a fungus. It looks like one, but to me looks much more like a tiny sponge. I could be wrong and could be perfectly a third different thing. Ctenophora are now the oldest animals I think, so there was a lot of old complexity yet from the start that we don't know well.
- daddylongstroke 5y agoI was thinking of Prototaxites which was maybe 470m years old (possibly) and humongous. Sounds like sponges are it (oldest) then. Until we learn otherwise.
- iNane9000 5y agoIntelligent design.
- taneq 5y agoYou don't think there's kin selection value in making any animal that eats you trip balls and/or freak out? In the wild I'd imagine any herbivore that spends six hours wandering around hallucinating and responding erratically if at all to outside stimuli will get eaten pretty quickly.
- 271828182846 5y agoYou have a point, obviously - but I wouldn't be surprised if mushrooms actually heighten awareness and response in animals and some people. Mushrooms tend to fog the mind only with regard to emotional responses. But other than that it seems one acts mostly pretty rational - only the perception seems to be changed. I took enough psilos and LSD to lose control of my ego and experience amnesia but from all I can say I never really acted irrational. Some tribes take psychedelics before hunting also.
- taneq 5y agoI'm intrigued, are there any records of hallucinogens in recreational doses enhancing real world performance? In my own limited experience they can be fun, but not what you'd call practical. How are you determining your own behaviour during your experience? Is it purely from your own recollections or is it from a third person viewpoint (video evidence, a sober trip sitter etc.)?
- 271828182846 5y agofirst of all it's a regular experience where somebody tripping is convinced s/he's acting weird just be assured that they seem completely inconspicuous for an observer.