4 ms·

It sounds supremely annoying to have to wait for the entire ecosystem to develop (Cider extensions, Bazel rules, whatever-the-fuck-else-someone-needed-to-feel-l

It sounds supremely annoying to have to wait for the entire ecosystem to develop (Cider extensions, Bazel rules, whatever-the-fuck-else-someone-needed-to-feel-less-guilty-about-making-$700k/yr) in order to write code in a new framework that's significantly more modern than the ones that are used currently.

ARandomerDude 5y ago
I mean, they don't have to release the code. Nobody owes you open source tools.
- rejectedandsad 5y ago
  I'm saying internally to Google. You don't have to do any of this at most companies.
  - jefftk 5y ago
    On the other hand, all of the JS here has been fully typed for 10+ years, so there are some pluses
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Actually at big ones you need IT clearance to adopt new versions, as you are only allowed to use what everyone is using. Hence plenty of companies still on Java 8, baby steps adopting C++11, Python 2.7, .NET Framework 4.8 is now being deployed, and similar.... Installing whatever you feel like locally doesn't work, because either you miss the required rights, or it will die on the CI/CD pipeline anyway.
xmprt 5y ago
On the other hand, internal tooling like cider, bazel, etc. are so advanced at these companies that the old frameworks like vanilla javascript are a lot better than what outsiders using javascript have. Moving to Typescript is still a huge benefit but I don't think the old development was that bad either.
gravypod 5y ago
Blaze and Cider are really amazing though. Consistently my favorite tools I use by and large. I wish the OSS world adopted bazel more so "what language do we use" is less of a problem.
- merb 5y ago
  these tools only work if you are big. small companies probably will never need bazel. the dependency management is just aweful and not all languages are equally well supported. and for small shops it's probably stupid to add build files everywhere.
  - gravypod 5y ago
    > dependency management is just aweful There is active work to improve this and make external does a first class feature. It will improve as more external contributors work on solutions and adopt bazel. > not all languages are equally well supported Similar to the previous statement. It doesn't make sense to imply "it's not perfect so it will never be perfect". The vision and feature set makes sense to me and I see no other build system tackling this scope. > and for small shops it's probably stupid to add build files everywhere. What makes it stupid? If your team is so small that you're only building one binary you only need one BUILD file. Very similar to how Gradle works actually. Also, build files are mostly auto generated if you wire your source code to standard conventions. It's something you only need to think about or touch when doing something complex (that also is not supported by other build systems). Example: using genrules to automate something or packaging things for deployment. If you have: - more then one language - unit tests - package an artifact for deployment (Docker, tar, zip, etc) - can benefit from caching Bazel-likes are pretty much the only option right now. There are quirks but there's also a growing community trying to smooth out those areas.
- rowanG077 5y ago
  I feel like this tools ar dead in the water with nix gaining popularity. They have nothing on nix.
  - 5y ago

ARandomerDude 5y ago

I mean, they don't have to release the code. Nobody owes you open source tools.

rejectedandsad 5y ago
I'm saying internally to Google. You don't have to do any of this at most companies.
- jefftk 5y ago
  On the other hand, all of the JS here has been fully typed for 10+ years, so there are some pluses
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Actually at big ones you need IT clearance to adopt new versions, as you are only allowed to use what everyone is using. Hence plenty of companies still on Java 8, baby steps adopting C++11, Python 2.7, .NET Framework 4.8 is now being deployed, and similar.... Installing whatever you feel like locally doesn't work, because either you miss the required rights, or it will die on the CI/CD pipeline anyway.

xmprt 5y ago

On the other hand, internal tooling like cider, bazel, etc. are so advanced at these companies that the old frameworks like vanilla javascript are a lot better than what outsiders using javascript have. Moving to Typescript is still a huge benefit but I don't think the old development was that bad either.

gravypod 5y ago

Blaze and Cider are really amazing though. Consistently my favorite tools I use by and large. I wish the OSS world adopted bazel more so "what language do we use" is less of a problem.

merb 5y ago
these tools only work if you are big. small companies probably will never need bazel. the dependency management is just aweful and not all languages are equally well supported. and for small shops it's probably stupid to add build files everywhere.
- gravypod 5y ago
  > dependency management is just aweful There is active work to improve this and make external does a first class feature. It will improve as more external contributors work on solutions and adopt bazel. > not all languages are equally well supported Similar to the previous statement. It doesn't make sense to imply "it's not perfect so it will never be perfect". The vision and feature set makes sense to me and I see no other build system tackling this scope. > and for small shops it's probably stupid to add build files everywhere. What makes it stupid? If your team is so small that you're only building one binary you only need one BUILD file. Very similar to how Gradle works actually. Also, build files are mostly auto generated if you wire your source code to standard conventions. It's something you only need to think about or touch when doing something complex (that also is not supported by other build systems). Example: using genrules to automate something or packaging things for deployment. If you have: - more then one language - unit tests - package an artifact for deployment (Docker, tar, zip, etc) - can benefit from caching Bazel-likes are pretty much the only option right now. There are quirks but there's also a growing community trying to smooth out those areas.
rowanG077 5y ago
I feel like this tools ar dead in the water with nix gaining popularity. They have nothing on nix.
- 5y ago