4 ms·

> What would you expect should happen, that UK should be allowed to use Nothern Ireland as backdoor to send unchecked goods to the EU, imported from say the USA

> What would you expect should happen, that UK should be allowed to use Nothern Ireland as backdoor to send unchecked goods to the EU, imported from say the USA and Australia and re-exported into the whole EU market with no border checks anywhere? Of course not. That's exactly GGP's point I was trying to prove. > The EU already has unprecedented control over commerce. And I agree with it.

estaseuropano 5y ago
But the issue was not EU control, rather the Ireland situation. The situation due solely to brexit required checks somewhere. Do you want new riots and civil war due to checks within Ireland? Should Ireland accept to effectively leave the common market and all its benefits just so there's no check between UK and Northern Ireland? Or this option. The UK killed all other scenarios by insisting that it wants to freely deviate from everything - if it had gone the Norway route or just stayed in the Union no such checks would be needed. Brexit was a slim non-binding referendum run ammock for party-internal politics of the Tories. Absurd from start to finish and now you want to blame the EU for the consequences?
- throwaways885 5y ago
  > Brexit was a slim non-binding referendum run ammock for party-internal politics of the Tories. Absurd from start to finish and now you want to blame the EU for the consequences? I'm not saying that I agree with how things have turned out, nor am I blaming the EU, rather, just pointing out that they do have much control over global commerce. And this is anecdotal evidence of that. The EU could've had an internal border within it's own market, but that wasn't an option because they didn't want Ireland to be cut off. Both the EU and UK had the same desire, but the EU had the upper hand due to their economic size and control.
  - jlokier 5y ago
    > The EU could've had an internal border within it's own market, but that wasn't an option because they didn't want Ireland to be cut off. That's not an EU decision as you're suggesting there. Ireland isn't some vassal state. It's an equal partner. Ireland itself doesn't want to cut Ireland off from the EU. It's not for the EU to decide something like that. It's an Ireland decision, and in fact the power to do so resides with Ireland. If Ireland had wanted to align with the UK and separate from the EU, they could have, and they still have the power to do so. Of course they don't want to, why would they. They've benefited enormously from EU membership, and one of those benefits now is that the EU often protects the interests of Ireland - as determined by Ireland - in negotiations with the UK. It is important to remember that the EU is not actually a top down system, even though it can seem that way. Any member country is free to leave simply by giving notice, and cease to partake of the benefits of membership. The EU's laws are clear on this.
  - rsynnott 5y ago
    > The EU could've had an internal border within it's own market, but that wasn't an option because they didn't want Ireland to be cut off. Eh? No, it couldn’t; Ireland would obviously veto that. Outside of the fevered imagination of Boris Johnson, that was never an actual option. I think there was a Brexiter theory that Ireland would do this voluntarily, and become a sort of UK dependency, but this was never at all realistic. I wouldn’t discount the possibility that some major brexit figures actually believed this would happen and were surprised that it didn’t, because they’re, well, not winning any prizes for competence (you may remember David Davis believing that the UK could make a trade deal with Germany, say…) But no-one serious ever bought this concept.

estaseuropano 5y ago

But the issue was not EU control, rather the Ireland situation. The situation due solely to brexit required checks somewhere. Do you want new riots and civil war due to checks within Ireland? Should Ireland accept to effectively leave the common market and all its benefits just so there's no check between UK and Northern Ireland? Or this option. The UK killed all other scenarios by insisting that it wants to freely deviate from everything - if it had gone the Norway route or just stayed in the Union no such checks would be needed. Brexit was a slim non-binding referendum run ammock for party-internal politics of the Tories. Absurd from start to finish and now you want to blame the EU for the consequences?

throwaways885 5y ago
> Brexit was a slim non-binding referendum run ammock for party-internal politics of the Tories. Absurd from start to finish and now you want to blame the EU for the consequences? I'm not saying that I agree with how things have turned out, nor am I blaming the EU, rather, just pointing out that they do have much control over global commerce. And this is anecdotal evidence of that. The EU could've had an internal border within it's own market, but that wasn't an option because they didn't want Ireland to be cut off. Both the EU and UK had the same desire, but the EU had the upper hand due to their economic size and control.
- jlokier 5y ago
  > The EU could've had an internal border within it's own market, but that wasn't an option because they didn't want Ireland to be cut off. That's not an EU decision as you're suggesting there. Ireland isn't some vassal state. It's an equal partner. Ireland itself doesn't want to cut Ireland off from the EU. It's not for the EU to decide something like that. It's an Ireland decision, and in fact the power to do so resides with Ireland. If Ireland had wanted to align with the UK and separate from the EU, they could have, and they still have the power to do so. Of course they don't want to, why would they. They've benefited enormously from EU membership, and one of those benefits now is that the EU often protects the interests of Ireland - as determined by Ireland - in negotiations with the UK. It is important to remember that the EU is not actually a top down system, even though it can seem that way. Any member country is free to leave simply by giving notice, and cease to partake of the benefits of membership. The EU's laws are clear on this.
- rsynnott 5y ago
  > The EU could've had an internal border within it's own market, but that wasn't an option because they didn't want Ireland to be cut off. Eh? No, it couldn’t; Ireland would obviously veto that. Outside of the fevered imagination of Boris Johnson, that was never an actual option. I think there was a Brexiter theory that Ireland would do this voluntarily, and become a sort of UK dependency, but this was never at all realistic. I wouldn’t discount the possibility that some major brexit figures actually believed this would happen and were surprised that it didn’t, because they’re, well, not winning any prizes for competence (you may remember David Davis believing that the UK could make a trade deal with Germany, say…) But no-one serious ever bought this concept.