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As a counterpoint, we in America certainly do not seem to be immune to sticking with flawed social constructs that impede our progress/happiness. For that matt

As a counterpoint, we in America certainly do not seem to be immune to sticking with flawed social constructs that impede our progress/happiness. For that matter, less-individualistic societies such as European countries don’t seem immune to some of the symptoms the parent comment mentioned, such as sports-worship. There is something to the notion that American individualism comes with its unique pathologies, but there’s clearly a lot more to the story of why things like self-help have exploded. For one thing, as traditional sources of meaning have withered under the harsh lights of science and modernity, all wealthy societies have seemed to struggle with a crisis of meaning. This leaves a vacuum that gets filled with self-help (the secret to a meaningful life is here in this book), sports-worship, celebrity-worship, video-game escapism, neo-nationalism, whatever. This can be seen all over the developed world. However, America’s extreme individualism may exacerbate this crisis of meaning, since community is often itself a source of meaning. We cannot go back to pre-modernity, nor should we try. What can we do to build societies, here and now, that help people feel a sense of meaning in their lives without the ghastly drawbacks of past sources of meaning such as religion and ethnic nationalism?

hallway_monitor 5y ago
Very insightful post. One thing I've often thought about America is we have less traditional sources of wisdom and value since we basically threw out all tradition. I think you left out the biggest thing people do to fill the void of existential dread: spend money! America is far more obsessed with that habit than any of the ones listed in my experience.
- et-al 5y ago
  I've long joked that the most beautiful word in the English language is not "cellar door", but "sale".
didibus 5y ago
I just don't believe this take, because I can't relate with it. I am a very happy and fulfilled person, and I've not had to engolf myself in self-help, sports-worship, celebrity-worship, video-game escapism or whatever else you listed, neither do I engolf myself in religion and ethnic nationalism. That leaves me that either your explanation is simply wrong, or only true for some individual. In my opinion, there's a false projection, it's like people complaining about Java versus the number of happy Java developers who don't care to participate either in the complaint or the praises of it online or at every occasion they find. If all you knew about it was the article and comments you'd read online, you'd think everyone dreads Java and become depressed from its prolonged use. Well I feel it similar with America and people's complaints about it. And the closest data I can find is the world surveys on self perceived happiness where people rate themselves on 0 to 10, with 10 being the happiest they can imagine themselves, and on those surveys, individualistic western countries tend to rank better. Edit: Not that I disagree with your conclusion, to help people find meaning and wellbeing in their life is great, and should be a goal of society, as long as is not forced on people, but simply provided as options that are made accessible to them to choose from if they so want.
- maroonblazer 5y ago
  >And the closest data I can find is the world surveys on self perceived happiness where people rate themselves on 0 to 10, with 10 being the happiest they can imagine themselves, and on those surveys, individualistic western countries tend to rank better. "western countries" is a broad category that includes Europe and the UK. I think the parent was suggesting that these countries' cultures are distinct from the U.S. w/r/t finding meaning. >...to help people find meaning and wellbeing in their life is great, and should be a goal of society, as long as is not forced on people... What an odd response. Was anyone suggesting forcing anything on anyone?
deertick1 5y ago
Your point about traditional sources of meaning withering due to science and modernity is correct, but I often struggle with why - Science has virtually nothing to say about the meaning of life. Science cannot contradict most traditional sources of meaning because they do not make many if any scientific assertions. To my way of thinking, the erosion of traditional sources of meaning and morality is caused solely by human hubris : we see all our scientific acconolishments and think "bah : how could we trust opinions held by ancient humans?! They didn't even have the internet" This seems to be a cycle thats repeated itself throughout history. Excess results in a rejection of traditional morals and meaning, which leads to a harsh reconciliation wherein civilization is struck with the rude reality of why those traditional morals where there in the first place. Which leads to an embrace of these traditional values, which then eventually creates more excess. Fascinating stuff.
- spitfire 5y ago
  Like some sort of insidious Lotka-Volterra equations!
- bryananderson 5y ago
  I think you are correct that science alone cannot tell us a meaning of life. But I think you’re wrong that traditional sources of meaning don’t make any scientific claims. They make tons of them: about the creation of the Earth and its place in the cosmos, about the creation of humans and our relationship with other species, about the nature of the human mind, about human history, about geological history, about health and nutrition, and so on. And that’s just religion. Tribalist ideologies like ethnic nationalism make tons of claims about the group’s history and origins, and often make claims about the group’s innate superiority. These claims are all subject to scrutiny by science, and they have done very poorly under that scrutiny. Of course it is always an option for religion to try to explain the old claims away as allegorical or misunderstood, but that leaves one with a very different kind of faith than someone who believed all of the claims fully and literally, with no reasonable doubt in their mind. Everything from the spread of disease to the fortunes of war to the success and failure of crops was once earnestly believed to be caused by the will of god or gods. Even the most ardent fundamentalist today cannot really get away without accepting—at least implicitly—materialist explanations for why many things happen. Even fanatics check the weather forecast. Modernity has also worn down the appeal of the old sources of meaning in other ways than through science. Affluence, health, and security have taken a lot of the appeal out of religion. Getting on the good side of an all-powerful god was a lot more appealing when famine, disease, and violence could strike at any time. We all still feel like we’re at the mercy of the world sometimes, but many of us are fortunate enough to avoid the kind of physical insecurity that our ancestors faced, and religion has declined over a few generations in every place where these fears have receded. Tribalism too has been sapped of its potency by the decline of endemic violence. Fear of the out-group is a lot more powerful when a violent death at their hands is a common fate of the people you know. In addition, the rise of fast, cheap travel has made it harder to believe that your home and your people are “the greatest on Earth” while all others are inferior. Among the classes with the disposable income to travel internationally, nationalism has grown very weak indeed. Ideally we would find something better than consumerism and celebrity-worship with which to replace these crumbled idols. We certainly cannot go back: the damage is real and it is done. Each new wave of religious or tribalist revival crests lower than the last. Not to mention, the traditional sources of meaning had awful drawbacks and excesses, as you alluded to. I hope we can do better than a choice between nihilism and the miserable past.
BeetleB 5y ago
> As a counterpoint, we in America certainly do not seem to be immune to sticking with flawed social constructs that impede our progress/happiness. There are definitely counterexamples within the US, but in my opinion they are much milder, and often in pockets. Generally speaking, if I take and practice advice in a self-help book that goes counter to the American norm, I don't get social rejection, and I often get more encouragement than negative vibes. Oh, and sports-worship is everywhere - wealthy and poor :-)
rramadass 5y ago
>as traditional sources of meaning have withered under the harsh lights of science and modernity, all wealthy societies have seemed to struggle with a crisis of meaning. This is the root of the problem. Bertrand Russel in his The Conquest of Happiness says; My purpose is to suggest a cure for the ordinary day-to-day unhappiness from which most people in civilised countries suffer, and which is all the more unbearable because, having no obvious external cause, it appears inescapable. This has now become true of almost all societies in varying degrees. All beliefs are questionable, nothing has any "inherent" meaning and there is always the tension of opposing viewpoints that need to be weighed and reconciled/accepted. It is all quite exhausting. Hence our need for "escapism" via Consumerism/Sports-worship/Celebrity-worship etc.

hallway_monitor 5y ago

Very insightful post. One thing I've often thought about America is we have less traditional sources of wisdom and value since we basically threw out all tradition. I think you left out the biggest thing people do to fill the void of existential dread: spend money! America is far more obsessed with that habit than any of the ones listed in my experience.

et-al 5y ago
I've long joked that the most beautiful word in the English language is not "cellar door", but "sale".

didibus 5y ago

I just don't believe this take, because I can't relate with it. I am a very happy and fulfilled person, and I've not had to engolf myself in self-help, sports-worship, celebrity-worship, video-game escapism or whatever else you listed, neither do I engolf myself in religion and ethnic nationalism. That leaves me that either your explanation is simply wrong, or only true for some individual. In my opinion, there's a false projection, it's like people complaining about Java versus the number of happy Java developers who don't care to participate either in the complaint or the praises of it online or at every occasion they find. If all you knew about it was the article and comments you'd read online, you'd think everyone dreads Java and become depressed from its prolonged use. Well I feel it similar with America and people's complaints about it. And the closest data I can find is the world surveys on self perceived happiness where people rate themselves on 0 to 10, with 10 being the happiest they can imagine themselves, and on those surveys, individualistic western countries tend to rank better. Edit: Not that I disagree with your conclusion, to help people find meaning and wellbeing in their life is great, and should be a goal of society, as long as is not forced on people, but simply provided as options that are made accessible to them to choose from if they so want.

maroonblazer 5y ago
>And the closest data I can find is the world surveys on self perceived happiness where people rate themselves on 0 to 10, with 10 being the happiest they can imagine themselves, and on those surveys, individualistic western countries tend to rank better. "western countries" is a broad category that includes Europe and the UK. I think the parent was suggesting that these countries' cultures are distinct from the U.S. w/r/t finding meaning. >...to help people find meaning and wellbeing in their life is great, and should be a goal of society, as long as is not forced on people... What an odd response. Was anyone suggesting forcing anything on anyone?

deertick1 5y ago

Your point about traditional sources of meaning withering due to science and modernity is correct, but I often struggle with why - Science has virtually nothing to say about the meaning of life. Science cannot contradict most traditional sources of meaning because they do not make many if any scientific assertions. To my way of thinking, the erosion of traditional sources of meaning and morality is caused solely by human hubris : we see all our scientific acconolishments and think "bah : how could we trust opinions held by ancient humans?! They didn't even have the internet" This seems to be a cycle thats repeated itself throughout history. Excess results in a rejection of traditional morals and meaning, which leads to a harsh reconciliation wherein civilization is struck with the rude reality of why those traditional morals where there in the first place. Which leads to an embrace of these traditional values, which then eventually creates more excess. Fascinating stuff.

spitfire 5y ago
Like some sort of insidious Lotka-Volterra equations!
bryananderson 5y ago
I think you are correct that science alone cannot tell us a meaning of life. But I think you’re wrong that traditional sources of meaning don’t make any scientific claims. They make tons of them: about the creation of the Earth and its place in the cosmos, about the creation of humans and our relationship with other species, about the nature of the human mind, about human history, about geological history, about health and nutrition, and so on. And that’s just religion. Tribalist ideologies like ethnic nationalism make tons of claims about the group’s history and origins, and often make claims about the group’s innate superiority. These claims are all subject to scrutiny by science, and they have done very poorly under that scrutiny. Of course it is always an option for religion to try to explain the old claims away as allegorical or misunderstood, but that leaves one with a very different kind of faith than someone who believed all of the claims fully and literally, with no reasonable doubt in their mind. Everything from the spread of disease to the fortunes of war to the success and failure of crops was once earnestly believed to be caused by the will of god or gods. Even the most ardent fundamentalist today cannot really get away without accepting—at least implicitly—materialist explanations for why many things happen. Even fanatics check the weather forecast. Modernity has also worn down the appeal of the old sources of meaning in other ways than through science. Affluence, health, and security have taken a lot of the appeal out of religion. Getting on the good side of an all-powerful god was a lot more appealing when famine, disease, and violence could strike at any time. We all still feel like we’re at the mercy of the world sometimes, but many of us are fortunate enough to avoid the kind of physical insecurity that our ancestors faced, and religion has declined over a few generations in every place where these fears have receded. Tribalism too has been sapped of its potency by the decline of endemic violence. Fear of the out-group is a lot more powerful when a violent death at their hands is a common fate of the people you know. In addition, the rise of fast, cheap travel has made it harder to believe that your home and your people are “the greatest on Earth” while all others are inferior. Among the classes with the disposable income to travel internationally, nationalism has grown very weak indeed. Ideally we would find something better than consumerism and celebrity-worship with which to replace these crumbled idols. We certainly cannot go back: the damage is real and it is done. Each new wave of religious or tribalist revival crests lower than the last. Not to mention, the traditional sources of meaning had awful drawbacks and excesses, as you alluded to. I hope we can do better than a choice between nihilism and the miserable past.

BeetleB 5y ago

> As a counterpoint, we in America certainly do not seem to be immune to sticking with flawed social constructs that impede our progress/happiness. There are definitely counterexamples within the US, but in my opinion they are much milder, and often in pockets. Generally speaking, if I take and practice advice in a self-help book that goes counter to the American norm, I don't get social rejection, and I often get more encouragement than negative vibes. Oh, and sports-worship is everywhere - wealthy and poor :-)

rramadass 5y ago

>as traditional sources of meaning have withered under the harsh lights of science and modernity, all wealthy societies have seemed to struggle with a crisis of meaning. This is the root of the problem. Bertrand Russel in his The Conquest of Happiness says; My purpose is to suggest a cure for the ordinary day-to-day unhappiness from which most people in civilised countries suffer, and which is all the more unbearable because, having no obvious external cause, it appears inescapable. This has now become true of almost all societies in varying degrees. All beliefs are questionable, nothing has any "inherent" meaning and there is always the tension of opposing viewpoints that need to be weighed and reconciled/accepted. It is all quite exhausting. Hence our need for "escapism" via Consumerism/Sports-worship/Celebrity-worship etc.