6 ms·

It mentions in the article that even apps like Signal would have to install backdoors that they can use.

by sergimansilla 5y ago

swiley 5y ago
Crypto is just about worthless without personal computing.
netr0ute 5y ago
That can't happen with open-source, whether it's "free" or not.
- jtmarmon 5y ago
  it can if you don't compile the source yourself, a la the app store
- 7373737373 5y ago
  That's not how this works in practice
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  While true, an adversarial government can pass new laws to restrict access or installation of software it deems dangerous. Politicians, uh, find a way.
  - netr0ute 5y ago
    In the US, forcibly including certain code in your program would be a 1st amendment violation.
    - BitwiseFool 5y ago
      I can envision all sorts of workarounds to this constitutional issue. And, Congress does this sort of thing all the time.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    Open source. That means that they'd have to either prevent the downloading of the source, prevent it compiling, or prevent running something that you compiled on your own box. Any of those three seems to be guaranteeing that Europe will not have any leading role in computers for the foreseeable future. Any of those three also seems almost impossible to enforce.
    - swiley 5y ago
      There's no way to build apps locally on most smartphones which are the majority of end user devices. Open source practically died with personal computers.
      - michaelmrose 5y ago
        When did personal computers die? Most desktops and laptops are fairly open and although android phones are not as open you can build software on your laptop/desktop for usage on your phone. You could also use something like pinephone or librem. You wont have access to a lot of android tech but the most important functionality. A web browser, sending sms, email, making calls all work.
        spindle 5y ago
        I agree. Currently not many people use open source on their phones, but that could change, and things like F-Droid are ready to be used.
  - _Wintermute 5y ago
    It wasn't that long ago that encryption was banned in France.
    - bruce343434 5y ago
      Source?
- oblio 5y ago
  https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    xkcd is a just a comic - please don't make it a conversation killer.
    - oblio 5y ago
      Well, to revive this conversation. States have access to "a monopoly of legitimate violence". We grant them that in order for them to be able to keep the peace, you know, law and order. Everything else can be boiled down to this. No matter how many bits of encryption keys are used, someone with a chloroform infused rag and a wrench can visit any of us at any moment. And it's actually part of what we, collectively, as citizens, have granted as a power to the state.
      - netr0ute 5y ago
        > someone with a chloroform infused rag and a wrench can visit any of us at any moment That's where engineering comes into play, maybe materials science to build suitable systems to defend against such physical attacks. And, you can't just ban engineering.
        ben_w 5y ago
        Unless I become Robert Johansson[0], my imagination and capacity for material engineering is not going to be enough to simultaneously have a life and protect against a single sufficiently motivated individual, let alone a nation state putting a lawful (by its standards) order against me. I’m only even safe from nutcases because the nation collectively has enough experience dealing with people who think they know better. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_E._Taylor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_E._Taylor
      - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
        I might be too influenced with Brazil I watched recently, but the monopoly on necessary violence is not without restrictions ( which is why there is an outcry when the outer bands are pushed too far ). Granted, the fact is that the bands are now hidden from public view only to resurface when a whistleblower lets the population know. Still, basic principle remains. There are limits to violence goverment can legitimately engage in.
- 0xy 5y ago
  That's absolutely not true, since Google is now signing app distributions and can easily swap them out. Additionally, there's no guarantee that Signal is shipping the same code to the app stores.
- sneak 5y ago
  The whole stack needs to be open source and user modifiable, though. Signal is open source, but if Apple is one day compelled to ban non-backdoored versions from the App Store, nobody can use it on an iPhone.
- dogecoinbase 5y ago
  Signal didn't publish the source for their server-side from 20 April 2020 to 6 April 2021 while they secretly added a cryptocurrency payment system. Open source is only open if the source is available (and yes -- if their end-to-end encryption system is working properly than even a notional malicious server would not be able to intercept message contents, but could of course provide metadata, and also you have no way of verifying that the app you install via whichever app store you install Signal from was built from any given source).
romesmoke 5y ago
To be precise, the article says that apps like Signal are to be the target of a follow-up regulation scheduled for coming September. It also emphasizes citizens' strong opposition to this prospect. Fingers crossed, but is it enough? What can we do to prevent this sh*tload?

It mentions in the article that even apps like Signal would have to install backdoors that they can use.

swiley 5y ago

Crypto is just about worthless without personal computing.

netr0ute 5y ago

That can't happen with open-source, whether it's "free" or not.

jtmarmon 5y ago
it can if you don't compile the source yourself, a la the app store
7373737373 5y ago
That's not how this works in practice
BitwiseFool 5y ago
While true, an adversarial government can pass new laws to restrict access or installation of software it deems dangerous. Politicians, uh, find a way.
- netr0ute 5y ago
  In the US, forcibly including certain code in your program would be a 1st amendment violation.
  - BitwiseFool 5y ago
    I can envision all sorts of workarounds to this constitutional issue. And, Congress does this sort of thing all the time.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  Open source. That means that they'd have to either prevent the downloading of the source, prevent it compiling, or prevent running something that you compiled on your own box. Any of those three seems to be guaranteeing that Europe will not have any leading role in computers for the foreseeable future. Any of those three also seems almost impossible to enforce.
  - swiley 5y ago
    There's no way to build apps locally on most smartphones which are the majority of end user devices. Open source practically died with personal computers.
    - michaelmrose 5y ago
      When did personal computers die? Most desktops and laptops are fairly open and although android phones are not as open you can build software on your laptop/desktop for usage on your phone. You could also use something like pinephone or librem. You wont have access to a lot of android tech but the most important functionality. A web browser, sending sms, email, making calls all work.
      - spindle 5y ago
        I agree. Currently not many people use open source on their phones, but that could change, and things like F-Droid are ready to be used.
- _Wintermute 5y ago
  It wasn't that long ago that encryption was banned in France.
  - bruce343434 5y ago
    Source?
oblio 5y ago
https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
- goodpoint 5y ago
  xkcd is a just a comic - please don't make it a conversation killer.
  - oblio 5y ago
    Well, to revive this conversation. States have access to "a monopoly of legitimate violence". We grant them that in order for them to be able to keep the peace, you know, law and order. Everything else can be boiled down to this. No matter how many bits of encryption keys are used, someone with a chloroform infused rag and a wrench can visit any of us at any moment. And it's actually part of what we, collectively, as citizens, have granted as a power to the state.
    - netr0ute 5y ago
      > someone with a chloroform infused rag and a wrench can visit any of us at any moment That's where engineering comes into play, maybe materials science to build suitable systems to defend against such physical attacks. And, you can't just ban engineering.
      - ben_w 5y ago
        Unless I become Robert Johansson[0], my imagination and capacity for material engineering is not going to be enough to simultaneously have a life and protect against a single sufficiently motivated individual, let alone a nation state putting a lawful (by its standards) order against me. I’m only even safe from nutcases because the nation collectively has enough experience dealing with people who think they know better. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_E._Taylor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_E._Taylor
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
      I might be too influenced with Brazil I watched recently, but the monopoly on necessary violence is not without restrictions ( which is why there is an outcry when the outer bands are pushed too far ). Granted, the fact is that the bands are now hidden from public view only to resurface when a whistleblower lets the population know. Still, basic principle remains. There are limits to violence goverment can legitimately engage in.
0xy 5y ago
That's absolutely not true, since Google is now signing app distributions and can easily swap them out. Additionally, there's no guarantee that Signal is shipping the same code to the app stores.
sneak 5y ago
The whole stack needs to be open source and user modifiable, though. Signal is open source, but if Apple is one day compelled to ban non-backdoored versions from the App Store, nobody can use it on an iPhone.
dogecoinbase 5y ago
Signal didn't publish the source for their server-side from 20 April 2020 to 6 April 2021 while they secretly added a cryptocurrency payment system. Open source is only open if the source is available (and yes -- if their end-to-end encryption system is working properly than even a notional malicious server would not be able to intercept message contents, but could of course provide metadata, and also you have no way of verifying that the app you install via whichever app store you install Signal from was built from any given source).

romesmoke 5y ago

To be precise, the article says that apps like Signal are to be the target of a follow-up regulation scheduled for coming September. It also emphasizes citizens' strong opposition to this prospect. Fingers crossed, but is it enough? What can we do to prevent this sh*tload?