4 ms·

The cultural infrastructure we had was extremely poor. We put a ton of focus into shaming and punishing people for bad behavior, and it just didn't work. Fat sh

The cultural infrastructure we had was extremely poor. We put a ton of focus into shaming and punishing people for bad behavior, and it just didn't work. Fat shaming has resulted in even more obese people. Punishing unmarried couples didn't increase the number of stable partnerships at all. We lost the war on drugs. I don't agree with the current trends either ("it's completely ok to do bad thing X!"). However, in addition to good advice for individuals, we need to keep trying to create cultural infrastructure that really does work.

mkr-hn 5y ago
I suspect the lower stress of acceptance, even when it goes overboard in cases where the thing can actually be harmful, still leads to better outcomes. Stress is a well-documented factor in weight gain, for example. My covid 19 after years of losing weight is proof! The loss came from self-acceptance. I stopped beating myself up when I slipped up, and I stopped letting other people shame me for it. That was good for 50 pounds, and I'm headed back down now that I'm vaccinated and getting as much back on track as I can. I don't have data handy, but I suspect shaming has killed more people and ruined more lives than acceptance.
foolinaround 5y ago
i think a carrot and stick approach would have worked. if the shaming is the stick, but where is the carrot? they should be provided alternatives and policies that prod towards the better options.
rayiner 5y ago
> Punishing unmarried couples didn't increase the number of stable partnerships at all. That’s a bad example. Family stability plummeted after the sexual revolution, even as access to birth control and abortion made family planning easier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_parents_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_parents_in_the_United_S...
- deleted 5y ago
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- tptacek 5y ago
  I don't know that the sexual revolution correlation holds up as well as the liberalization of divorce laws, which precedes the sex stuff by a decade or more.
  - ww2buff 5y ago
    I think it is a remarkable testament to your patience that you continue to treat this guy as if he is interested in arguing in good faith, and not as a hardcore ideologue & culture-warrior.
    - tptacek 5y ago
      This guy is one of the most valuable contributors to the site, all the more so because we disagree about so much politically; I have almost total faith that he means what he says, and, especially on politically-tinged topics (also compiler theory), tend to learn a lot from him. Always happy for the opportunity to say that, so thanks!
      - ww2buff 5y ago
        Well, in that case I suppose this has actually been a testament to poor judgment on both our parts.
      - jahaja 5y ago
        lol, I will never figure out how you can stan rayiner so much. He's an obvious reactionary and a notorious cherry-picker.
    - rayiner 5y ago
      I’ll admit to being a gun nut and originalist, but “breakdown of two parent families is bad” is a completely mainstream position among non-white immigrants in the US.

mkr-hn 5y ago

I suspect the lower stress of acceptance, even when it goes overboard in cases where the thing can actually be harmful, still leads to better outcomes. Stress is a well-documented factor in weight gain, for example. My covid 19 after years of losing weight is proof! The loss came from self-acceptance. I stopped beating myself up when I slipped up, and I stopped letting other people shame me for it. That was good for 50 pounds, and I'm headed back down now that I'm vaccinated and getting as much back on track as I can. I don't have data handy, but I suspect shaming has killed more people and ruined more lives than acceptance.

foolinaround 5y ago

i think a carrot and stick approach would have worked. if the shaming is the stick, but where is the carrot? they should be provided alternatives and policies that prod towards the better options.

rayiner 5y ago

> Punishing unmarried couples didn't increase the number of stable partnerships at all. That’s a bad example. Family stability plummeted after the sexual revolution, even as access to birth control and abortion made family planning easier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_parents_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_parents_in_the_United_S...

deleted 5y ago
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tptacek 5y ago
I don't know that the sexual revolution correlation holds up as well as the liberalization of divorce laws, which precedes the sex stuff by a decade or more.
- ww2buff 5y ago
  I think it is a remarkable testament to your patience that you continue to treat this guy as if he is interested in arguing in good faith, and not as a hardcore ideologue & culture-warrior.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    This guy is one of the most valuable contributors to the site, all the more so because we disagree about so much politically; I have almost total faith that he means what he says, and, especially on politically-tinged topics (also compiler theory), tend to learn a lot from him. Always happy for the opportunity to say that, so thanks!
    - ww2buff 5y ago
      Well, in that case I suppose this has actually been a testament to poor judgment on both our parts.
    - jahaja 5y ago
      lol, I will never figure out how you can stan rayiner so much. He's an obvious reactionary and a notorious cherry-picker.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    I’ll admit to being a gun nut and originalist, but “breakdown of two parent families is bad” is a completely mainstream position among non-white immigrants in the US.