5 ms·

If someone at starlink wanted your address I don't think lack of GPS would stop them.

sneak 5y ago
What avenues would they have to determine precise location if the dish reported its location 1km off, the delivery of CPE went to a different name/address, the service is paid for with a prepaid card, and 100% of the traffic to/from the device is encrypted at L4 to prevent usefulness of sniffing?
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Multilateration. Can’t cheat RF time of arrival/flight. And a StarLink terminal misreporting it’s position and the constellation indicating such an anomaly sounds like a paddlin’ from StarLink. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilateration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilateration
- Tuna-Fish 5y ago
  They know the locations of their satellites extremely precisely, and they know the round-trip time from them to the dish. It basically is a positioning system on it's own.
  - sneak 5y ago
    Sure, but to do this would require firmware support (due to the timing requirements) in the satellites themselves, I believe. I doubt that's happening right now.
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      As bitrates increase, time of flight becomes more and more of an important quantity. Also, it’s likely Starlink satellites will develop ability to do time of flight for military reasons, ie as a backup to GPS.
      - KirillPanov 5y ago
        It's likely that is the real motivation for Starlink. Rural internet is just a bonus. Laundering the money through FCC RDOF was a stroke of genius; I tip my hat to whoever came up with that idea.
        Robotbeat 5y ago
        That doesn't make any sense. There's WAY more money in commercial satellite internet than there is with niche US military contracts. I don't understand why people are so committed to assuming there's a nefarious "real motivation" behind Starlink. Global telecomms is on the order of $2 trillion in revenue per year and growing. The US military's GPS budget is about $1.5 billion. So we're talking about addressable markets 3 orders of magnitude different in size.
        KirillPanov 5y ago
        Oh yeah, I'm sure this just for fun: https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/75874/us-navy-returns-teaching-officers-how-navigate-stars https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/75874/us-navy-returns-te...
      - sgtnoodle 5y ago
        The satellites are presumably themselves beamforming their transmissions to the dish to a high angular precision. If the satellites know their attitude precisely via star tracking and IMU, then a single satellite could be enough to geo-locate a dish. I wouldn't be surprised if SpaceX tracks starlink satellite orbits via GPS, so that may limit their use as a redundant GPS system. Now I'm curious what their command and control links look like. It's possible and perhaps likely that they can only communicate with any given satellite intermittently, as they fly overhead of ground stations.
- gruez 5y ago
  Time of flight + beamforming data (which essentially generates an angle)
- nonameiguess 5y ago
  Have you actually ordered Starlink service yet? I'm on the list having put in a deposit and they expect to start offering service here in September. I had to give them an address so they know where to send the satellite to. That gives them precise location. Though sure, you could make the purchase using a pre-paid card under a fake identity so they can't associate the address with a person. At least not through their own records. House deeds are public record, so if you own the house, they can figure out who you are by making a public records request, which is generally one way refi spammers find you. Plus, depending on where you are, the government itself might sell your name and address to third parties. I know Texas does this, which is why I put getting a Texas ID for such a long time and continued using California ID until Texas last year decided you can't vote with an out-of-state ID. So now the DMV is selling my identity and I'm getting a lot more spam.
  - sneak 5y ago
    You can order the dish to a post box in your city. They currently work within a few dozen km of the service address.

What avenues would they have to determine precise location if the dish reported its location 1km off, the delivery of CPE went to a different name/address, the service is paid for with a prepaid card, and 100% of the traffic to/from the device is encrypted at L4 to prevent usefulness of sniffing?

toomuchtodo 5y ago
Multilateration. Can’t cheat RF time of arrival/flight. And a StarLink terminal misreporting it’s position and the constellation indicating such an anomaly sounds like a paddlin’ from StarLink. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilateration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilateration
Tuna-Fish 5y ago
They know the locations of their satellites extremely precisely, and they know the round-trip time from them to the dish. It basically is a positioning system on it's own.
- sneak 5y ago
  Sure, but to do this would require firmware support (due to the timing requirements) in the satellites themselves, I believe. I doubt that's happening right now.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    As bitrates increase, time of flight becomes more and more of an important quantity. Also, it’s likely Starlink satellites will develop ability to do time of flight for military reasons, ie as a backup to GPS.
    - KirillPanov 5y ago
      It's likely that is the real motivation for Starlink. Rural internet is just a bonus. Laundering the money through FCC RDOF was a stroke of genius; I tip my hat to whoever came up with that idea.
      - Robotbeat 5y ago
        That doesn't make any sense. There's WAY more money in commercial satellite internet than there is with niche US military contracts. I don't understand why people are so committed to assuming there's a nefarious "real motivation" behind Starlink. Global telecomms is on the order of $2 trillion in revenue per year and growing. The US military's GPS budget is about $1.5 billion. So we're talking about addressable markets 3 orders of magnitude different in size.
        KirillPanov 5y ago
        Oh yeah, I'm sure this just for fun: https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/75874/us-navy-returns-teaching-officers-how-navigate-stars https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/75874/us-navy-returns-te...
    - sgtnoodle 5y ago
      The satellites are presumably themselves beamforming their transmissions to the dish to a high angular precision. If the satellites know their attitude precisely via star tracking and IMU, then a single satellite could be enough to geo-locate a dish. I wouldn't be surprised if SpaceX tracks starlink satellite orbits via GPS, so that may limit their use as a redundant GPS system. Now I'm curious what their command and control links look like. It's possible and perhaps likely that they can only communicate with any given satellite intermittently, as they fly overhead of ground stations.
gruez 5y ago
Time of flight + beamforming data (which essentially generates an angle)
nonameiguess 5y ago
Have you actually ordered Starlink service yet? I'm on the list having put in a deposit and they expect to start offering service here in September. I had to give them an address so they know where to send the satellite to. That gives them precise location. Though sure, you could make the purchase using a pre-paid card under a fake identity so they can't associate the address with a person. At least not through their own records. House deeds are public record, so if you own the house, they can figure out who you are by making a public records request, which is generally one way refi spammers find you. Plus, depending on where you are, the government itself might sell your name and address to third parties. I know Texas does this, which is why I put getting a Texas ID for such a long time and continued using California ID until Texas last year decided you can't vote with an out-of-state ID. So now the DMV is selling my identity and I'm getting a lot more spam.
- sneak 5y ago
  You can order the dish to a post box in your city. They currently work within a few dozen km of the service address.