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I wonder how healthy this actually is. Isn’t pain a signal the brain uses to alert you about a detected problem? Just eliminating the sensation of pain could m

by krm01 5y ago

I wonder how healthy this actually is. Isn’t pain a signal the brain uses to alert you about a detected problem? Just eliminating the sensation of pain could mean your body would be unable to signal an issue that needs to be resolved.

jakogut 5y ago
try: perform_task() except: pass
juandazapata 5y ago
It is. Excerpt from [1] > An inability to feel pain and temperature often leads to repeated severe injuries. Unintentional self-injury is common in people with CIPA, typically by biting the tongue, lips, or fingers, which may lead to spontaneous amputation of the affected area. In addition, people with CIPA heal slowly from skin and bone injuries. Repeated trauma can lead to chronic bone infections (osteomyelitis) or a condition called Charcot joints, in which the bones and tissue surrounding joints are destroyed. 1: https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/congenital-insensitivity-to-pain-with-anhidrosis/ https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/congenital-insens...
jliptzin 5y ago
You don’t have to completely eliminate it. Maybe someone suffering from cluster headaches only has to go through a migraine level of pain to realize there is a problem, not suffer through childbirth level pain every time an attack comes on.
WaitWaitWha 5y ago
This is why leprosy is terrible. No pain sensation when body is damaged even by the patient, themselves.
Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
Complete elimination of pain is probably not a good idea, for sure. But the ability to actively shut off pain once you've acknowledged the problem, or at least numb it down to it not being completely debilitating, could be useful.
- Osiris 5y ago
  I recently had a very large kidney stone and let me tell you... It was bad enough to make me vomit. In cases like this it would be great to be able to self-medicate the pain. However, I can also see how it could be abused to say "ah, it's not that bad" and not have the problem resolved. In my case, it could lead to permanent kidney damage.
  - throwanem 5y ago
    I had a 5mm stone in late 2018. Even if a therapy based on this research had existed at that time, I doubt anyone would have suggested brain surgery when I presented with an acute abdomen at the ER. Granted I did end up having to have surgery for another stone the following year, but that surgery definitely did not have anything to do with my brain beyond anesthesia. That's not really the end of a human in which urologists specialize, you know? It'd be one thing if I had a pre-existing chronic pain condition for which I'd already had such an implant installed, but even in that case I'd have to have enough access to ongoing care to have someone I could call and say "this hurts in a way that's new." The implant itself would need the same kind of management as does a pacemaker or ICD, I imagine. So it seems not tremendously likely that the scenario you describe would play out in practice. (In any case, I'm good enough at withstanding pain that I waited two full days before deciding it was time to go to the ER, and even at that raised the mild suspicion of the doctor who attended me on the basis of how I wasn't screaming, vomiting, swearing, or otherwise showing much of anything beyond being pale and dehydrated. If it hadn't been for CT results unquestionably showing the calculus, I might've had some trouble with being misidentified as a drug seeker. So I'm not super sure the implant poses much more of a risk for inadvertent self-harm, you know? If I'd been in a worse way than I was, I could well have lost a kidney entirely through sheer stubbornness, no brain implant required.)
- collyw 5y ago
  Meditation can do this to an extent.
- CountDrewku 5y ago
  >But the ability to actively shut off pain once you've acknowledged the problem That's not what this implant does though. It's all automatic within a few seconds which implies that you'd never be able to discern life threatening pain from stubbing your toe. It seems you'd receive an extremely short lived pain signal (if any) and then it'd be gone. You'd have to give manual control to the individual for your suggestion to work and that comes with its own issues of "abuse" >Once it detects an electrical signal that suggests “pain found,” it sends the information to the “sleeper agent,” a computer chip implanted in the front part of the brain. The chip then automatically triggers a light beam to stimulate the region, activating neurons that can override pain signals.
root_axis 5y ago
Sometimes this would be preferable to the alternative.
Tarucho 5y ago
At first I thought the same as you, but for some chronic illnesses as rheumatoid arthritis where there is a lot of pain but no cure, the ability to turn pain on/off as needed (and under proper guidance) is probably something good.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ashes-of-sol 5y ago
Perhaps in someone with normal pain response, sure. But there are conditions which result in being in an almost constant state of pain. I could see this being a very useful tool in regaining some quality of life for people trying to manage these conditions.
BeetleB 5y ago
> Isn’t pain a signal the brain uses to alert you about a detected problem? It's a controversial topic, many believe that some of the pain your brain generates is for a problem it thinks you have, but don't. Usually this comes up in the context of back pain. When you start reading up on certain types of chronic pain, there are quite a few "Doctors cannot find any physical problem causing the pain." Usually no treatment works for these people, as there is no problem to solve, except perhaps a brain anomaly. Of course, disabling all pain would be a bad idea.

by krm01 5y ago

jakogut 5y ago

try: perform_task() except: pass

juandazapata 5y ago

It is. Excerpt from [1] > An inability to feel pain and temperature often leads to repeated severe injuries. Unintentional self-injury is common in people with CIPA, typically by biting the tongue, lips, or fingers, which may lead to spontaneous amputation of the affected area. In addition, people with CIPA heal slowly from skin and bone injuries. Repeated trauma can lead to chronic bone infections (osteomyelitis) or a condition called Charcot joints, in which the bones and tissue surrounding joints are destroyed. 1: https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/congenital-insensitivity-to-pain-with-anhidrosis/ https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/congenital-insens...

jliptzin 5y ago

You don’t have to completely eliminate it. Maybe someone suffering from cluster headaches only has to go through a migraine level of pain to realize there is a problem, not suffer through childbirth level pain every time an attack comes on.

WaitWaitWha 5y ago

This is why leprosy is terrible. No pain sensation when body is damaged even by the patient, themselves.

Sohcahtoa82 5y ago

Complete elimination of pain is probably not a good idea, for sure. But the ability to actively shut off pain once you've acknowledged the problem, or at least numb it down to it not being completely debilitating, could be useful.

Osiris 5y ago
I recently had a very large kidney stone and let me tell you... It was bad enough to make me vomit. In cases like this it would be great to be able to self-medicate the pain. However, I can also see how it could be abused to say "ah, it's not that bad" and not have the problem resolved. In my case, it could lead to permanent kidney damage.
- throwanem 5y ago
  I had a 5mm stone in late 2018. Even if a therapy based on this research had existed at that time, I doubt anyone would have suggested brain surgery when I presented with an acute abdomen at the ER. Granted I did end up having to have surgery for another stone the following year, but that surgery definitely did not have anything to do with my brain beyond anesthesia. That's not really the end of a human in which urologists specialize, you know? It'd be one thing if I had a pre-existing chronic pain condition for which I'd already had such an implant installed, but even in that case I'd have to have enough access to ongoing care to have someone I could call and say "this hurts in a way that's new." The implant itself would need the same kind of management as does a pacemaker or ICD, I imagine. So it seems not tremendously likely that the scenario you describe would play out in practice. (In any case, I'm good enough at withstanding pain that I waited two full days before deciding it was time to go to the ER, and even at that raised the mild suspicion of the doctor who attended me on the basis of how I wasn't screaming, vomiting, swearing, or otherwise showing much of anything beyond being pale and dehydrated. If it hadn't been for CT results unquestionably showing the calculus, I might've had some trouble with being misidentified as a drug seeker. So I'm not super sure the implant poses much more of a risk for inadvertent self-harm, you know? If I'd been in a worse way than I was, I could well have lost a kidney entirely through sheer stubbornness, no brain implant required.)
collyw 5y ago
Meditation can do this to an extent.
CountDrewku 5y ago
>But the ability to actively shut off pain once you've acknowledged the problem That's not what this implant does though. It's all automatic within a few seconds which implies that you'd never be able to discern life threatening pain from stubbing your toe. It seems you'd receive an extremely short lived pain signal (if any) and then it'd be gone. You'd have to give manual control to the individual for your suggestion to work and that comes with its own issues of "abuse" >Once it detects an electrical signal that suggests “pain found,” it sends the information to the “sleeper agent,” a computer chip implanted in the front part of the brain. The chip then automatically triggers a light beam to stimulate the region, activating neurons that can override pain signals.

root_axis 5y ago

Sometimes this would be preferable to the alternative.

Tarucho 5y ago

At first I thought the same as you, but for some chronic illnesses as rheumatoid arthritis where there is a lot of pain but no cure, the ability to turn pain on/off as needed (and under proper guidance) is probably something good.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ashes-of-sol 5y ago

Perhaps in someone with normal pain response, sure. But there are conditions which result in being in an almost constant state of pain. I could see this being a very useful tool in regaining some quality of life for people trying to manage these conditions.

BeetleB 5y ago

> Isn’t pain a signal the brain uses to alert you about a detected problem? It's a controversial topic, many believe that some of the pain your brain generates is for a problem it thinks you have, but don't. Usually this comes up in the context of back pain. When you start reading up on certain types of chronic pain, there are quite a few "Doctors cannot find any physical problem causing the pain." Usually no treatment works for these people, as there is no problem to solve, except perhaps a brain anomaly. Of course, disabling all pain would be a bad idea.