4 ms·

They keep saying things like "arid, parched" which leads me to believe they are looking at land in West Texas (it is very cheap land). These things do not apply

by chomp 5y ago

They keep saying things like "arid, parched" which leads me to believe they are looking at land in West Texas (it is very cheap land). These things do not apply to South East Texas, which is mostly subtropical. However, even in the South East we've had issues with subsidence due to over pumping (which we've mostly weaned off from), so the point of being self sustaining on surface water still applies. East Texas has a huge logging and tree farming industry, so if you're building in East Texas, you'll probably want to leverage the natural resources; rammed earth doesn't quite make sense there. Also, and this is my personal opinion, I do not believe it is possible to create a successful, large town without vehicles or air conditioning here, it isn't practical, and it isn't in the culture. If you look at the history of success of Texas towns, many further West and South/South East did not become successful until the advent of the vehicle and the air conditioner. The idea of lugging groceries for even a 150m walk in this weather sounds miserable. I recommend the author looks more local to find out what makes Texas towns tick rather than global, because while there's great ideas from around the world that could be imported, you shouldn't discount the local maxima.

bertmuthalaly 5y ago
A 150m walk on a bald Texas street does indeed sound miserable. A tree-lined one, though, can be quite nice: https://twitter.com/brent_bellamy/status/1411133447062441990 https://twitter.com/brent_bellamy/status/1411133447062441990
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  Yes, it's definitely better, but like all of these zero-energy "alternatives" to air conditioning, it feels like a 20% substitute being sold as an 80% substitute.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - coryrc 5y ago
    I'm more comfortable walking through Marrakech's old town at 35°C than the sidewalk next to an asphalt road in Seattle at 25°C.
  - tomjakubowski 5y ago
    How is this an alternative to air conditioning? It's an idea to make being outside in the heat mor bearable, not inside. Good shade provides more like an alternative to depending on a car to get around on hot days.
    - jjoonathan 5y ago
      It's not an alternative, and that's my point.
      - crooked-v 5y ago
        Properly livable landscaping isn't being sold as an alternative for air conditioning in the first place, which makes your comment seem like a complete non sequitur.
        jjoonathan 5y ago
        > isn't being sold as an alternative for air conditioning That's where we disagree.
psychometry 5y ago
The usual attitude of regressive red-state governments towards cities pursuing left-leaning ideas (raising the local minimum wage, relaxing zoning, building municipal broadband infrastructure, etc.) is to make it illegal for cities to do those things. So I find it odd that Texas is the location for this thought experiment. If these plans were put into action, the state of TX would probably pass laws and regulations requiring things like minimum amounts of street parking.
- chomp 5y ago
  I mean, Texas is home to the largest unzoned city in the country. It’s also the most successful red state in the country, so it’s favorable amongst some groups, especially those with business leanings. I don’t think they’d enforce parking minimums, but we do have municipal broadband restrictions. As a resident, I also found it an odd choice. I’d build an experiment city (especially one that wants to be walkable with less reliance on a/c) somewhere with more amenable weather. Water is also more of an issue. West Texas land isn’t just cheap because it’s flat and brown, it also is a crapshoot if your wells pull up brine vs fresh water, or if you have to dig absurdly deep wells that you have to replace every 5 years.
  - jeffbee 5y ago
    West Texas has some kind of fatal attraction for a certain type of person, like the Ron Paul followers who tried to establish Paulville in Hudspeth County. Wrath of Gnon, much as I enjoy certain of their tweets, has that "reject modernity, embrace tradition" vibe that is also very closely aligned in several dimensions with libertarians and separatists. Compound that with the fact that land in most parts of far west Texas is incredibly cheap (because it is useless) and you can see how people fall into that trap. I think people should just remember that if they see some incredibly cheap Texas land advertised for sale online, it was probably used at some point to spread New Jersey sewage imported by rail. https://www.nytimes.com/1998/09/02/us/for-some-texas-town-is-too-popular-as-waste-disposal-site.html https://www.nytimes.com/1998/09/02/us/for-some-texas-town-is...
    - 5y ago
hindsightbias 5y ago
Villages in Spain and elsewhere use light wall colors, roof overhangs and narrow streets/walkways to keep paths shaded and cool. Also can orient for wind. Can make it a bit more manageable. For really oppressive days, you put low flow misters along paths. In a village, you don’t go to HEB once every two weeks and get $400 in groceries. You walk to the market every day or two and shop. One tote bag. You send the kid to the butcher, fishmonger or for something you forgot. Completely different from sub/exurb lifestyle. Smaller hand trucks/carts would also be a norm, very common to see those in Europe with the elderly, delivery or tradesfolks. One aspect of the covid era was that many stopped walking to urban stores every day and made it a weekly thing or got delivieries. Kind of eye opening to see a city like SF return to crowded markets.
- sbierwagen 5y ago
  >Villages in Spain and elsewhere use light wall colors, roof overhangs and narrow streets/walkways to keep paths shaded and cool. Spain also had 12,963 excess deaths in the 2003 heatwave. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_European_heat_wave#Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_European_heat_wave#Spain You can absolutely have a city without air conditioning. Humans have done it for thousands of years. The well-known tradeoff is that you are going to lose some elderly people during the summer.
- albrewer 5y ago
  Villages in Spain don't get 100 - 140" (10-12 meters) of rain a year and they don't have months of 100+ °F (38 °C) heat at 100% humidity. The extreme climate there is hard to describe.

by chomp 5y ago

bertmuthalaly 5y ago

A 150m walk on a bald Texas street does indeed sound miserable. A tree-lined one, though, can be quite nice: https://twitter.com/brent_bellamy/status/1411133447062441990 https://twitter.com/brent_bellamy/status/1411133447062441990

jjoonathan 5y ago
Yes, it's definitely better, but like all of these zero-energy "alternatives" to air conditioning, it feels like a 20% substitute being sold as an 80% substitute.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- coryrc 5y ago
  I'm more comfortable walking through Marrakech's old town at 35°C than the sidewalk next to an asphalt road in Seattle at 25°C.
- tomjakubowski 5y ago
  How is this an alternative to air conditioning? It's an idea to make being outside in the heat mor bearable, not inside. Good shade provides more like an alternative to depending on a car to get around on hot days.
  - jjoonathan 5y ago
    It's not an alternative, and that's my point.
    - crooked-v 5y ago
      Properly livable landscaping isn't being sold as an alternative for air conditioning in the first place, which makes your comment seem like a complete non sequitur.
      - jjoonathan 5y ago
        > isn't being sold as an alternative for air conditioning That's where we disagree.

psychometry 5y ago

The usual attitude of regressive red-state governments towards cities pursuing left-leaning ideas (raising the local minimum wage, relaxing zoning, building municipal broadband infrastructure, etc.) is to make it illegal for cities to do those things. So I find it odd that Texas is the location for this thought experiment. If these plans were put into action, the state of TX would probably pass laws and regulations requiring things like minimum amounts of street parking.

chomp 5y ago
I mean, Texas is home to the largest unzoned city in the country. It’s also the most successful red state in the country, so it’s favorable amongst some groups, especially those with business leanings. I don’t think they’d enforce parking minimums, but we do have municipal broadband restrictions. As a resident, I also found it an odd choice. I’d build an experiment city (especially one that wants to be walkable with less reliance on a/c) somewhere with more amenable weather. Water is also more of an issue. West Texas land isn’t just cheap because it’s flat and brown, it also is a crapshoot if your wells pull up brine vs fresh water, or if you have to dig absurdly deep wells that you have to replace every 5 years.
- jeffbee 5y ago
  West Texas has some kind of fatal attraction for a certain type of person, like the Ron Paul followers who tried to establish Paulville in Hudspeth County. Wrath of Gnon, much as I enjoy certain of their tweets, has that "reject modernity, embrace tradition" vibe that is also very closely aligned in several dimensions with libertarians and separatists. Compound that with the fact that land in most parts of far west Texas is incredibly cheap (because it is useless) and you can see how people fall into that trap. I think people should just remember that if they see some incredibly cheap Texas land advertised for sale online, it was probably used at some point to spread New Jersey sewage imported by rail. https://www.nytimes.com/1998/09/02/us/for-some-texas-town-is-too-popular-as-waste-disposal-site.html https://www.nytimes.com/1998/09/02/us/for-some-texas-town-is...
  - 5y ago

hindsightbias 5y ago

Villages in Spain and elsewhere use light wall colors, roof overhangs and narrow streets/walkways to keep paths shaded and cool. Also can orient for wind. Can make it a bit more manageable. For really oppressive days, you put low flow misters along paths. In a village, you don’t go to HEB once every two weeks and get $400 in groceries. You walk to the market every day or two and shop. One tote bag. You send the kid to the butcher, fishmonger or for something you forgot. Completely different from sub/exurb lifestyle. Smaller hand trucks/carts would also be a norm, very common to see those in Europe with the elderly, delivery or tradesfolks. One aspect of the covid era was that many stopped walking to urban stores every day and made it a weekly thing or got delivieries. Kind of eye opening to see a city like SF return to crowded markets.

sbierwagen 5y ago
>Villages in Spain and elsewhere use light wall colors, roof overhangs and narrow streets/walkways to keep paths shaded and cool. Spain also had 12,963 excess deaths in the 2003 heatwave. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_European_heat_wave#Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_European_heat_wave#Spain You can absolutely have a city without air conditioning. Humans have done it for thousands of years. The well-known tradeoff is that you are going to lose some elderly people during the summer.
albrewer 5y ago
Villages in Spain don't get 100 - 140" (10-12 meters) of rain a year and they don't have months of 100+ °F (38 °C) heat at 100% humidity. The extreme climate there is hard to describe.