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> That is spyware. I strongly disagree. The frequency with which I use my mouse to click buttons vs. keyboard shortcuts to invoke functionality in a program is

by fouric 5y ago

> That is spyware. I strongly disagree. The frequency with which I use my mouse to click buttons vs. keyboard shortcuts to invoke functionality in a program is not personal information, and a system that collects it is not spyware. > For example: do you hover your mouse over an icon? This is not private information. In fact, about half of the things you indicated are clearly not. What you're describing are points of data collection that could be used for fingerprinting, which is an entirely separate issue, and can be defeated relatively easily (by adding noise, not recording some pieces of data, and aggregating others). > Does your computer location move? Do you travel between cities a lot, or even countries? The other half of the things that you describe are actual spying and wouldn't be called telemetry anyway. This is a strawman argument. > It's a hop-skip-and-a-jump to learn private information from how software is used. Tell me how the Audacity developers knowing that I press a sequence of three buttons in a row enables them to determine that I'm single, or how tall I am, or that I like Polish TV dramas, or literally any other personal information? This is an absurd fallacy. Even assuming that the developers somehow managed to sneak in granular enough telemetry (ignoring real keyloggers, because again, we're talking about telemetry) that they could fingerprint you, literally the only thing that allows them to do is identify when a the same person uses Audacity on multiple machines. There's no leakage of actual personal information.

jjav 5y ago
> The frequency with which I use my mouse to click buttons vs. keyboard shortcuts to invoke functionality in a program is not personal information, and a system that collects it is not spyware. It is unquestionably spyware. Any data which leaves my computer without my approval, is spyware. As others have noted, 20 years ago this was not even remotely a question. Any application sending any data at all that wasn't directly part of its functionality would spark outrage. It is sad that somehow spyware has become normalized in some circles. It's never ok.
handrous 5y ago
No software should look over your shoulder on your computer without explicitly asking to do so. This was flatly unacceptable, not all that long ago. I hate that the Overton window on this topic has shifted so far toward spying's side.
- fouric 5y ago
  Telemetry is not "looking over your shoulder", because that statement means that private data is being leaked, which is excluded by the definition of telemetry. Your statement is misleading and emotionally manipulative at best. You appear to be setting up a straw-man argument of what "telemetry" is, and then knocking it down again. Let me state it explicitly: "telemetry" does not include any personal data. Programs that collect "telemetry" that includes personal data are lying - and that has nothing to do with an actual argument about telemetry.
  - inetknght 5y ago
    > which is excluded by the definition of telemetry Most users are simply incapable of understanding how the data can be used. They cannot agree to something they do not understand. What users do and how is being stolen and used for purposes that they do not agree to. The definition of private information is anything and everything that the user does. It's not a "data leak". It's straight up theft. Telemetry, by definition, is a theft of private information.
    - fouric 5y ago
      > The definition of private information is anything and everything that the user does. This is absolutely absurd and completely false. It is not private information that I am running a copy of Audacity or Firefox or Emacs (quite the opposite, I want people to know that I use the superior text editor), and neither does the same statement apply in real life - "anything and everything a human does IRL is private" is a similarly obviously false statement. > Telemetry, by definition, is a theft of private information. Again, false, because telemetry is defined as non-private data. Neither, in fact, does "telemetry" imply non-consent - you can have opt-out or opt-in telemetry, and either one can have a prompt that is shown to the user on program start-up.
      - inetknght 5y ago
        > This is absolutely absurd and completely false. No, it is neither absurd nor false. > It is not private information that I am running a copy of Audacity or Firefox or Emacs (quite the opposite, I want people to know that I use the superior text editor) That's your choice. But your choice should not be imposed upon others. Not everyone wants others to know what software they use. I don't want others to know whether I use Audacity or WinAmp or Clementine or VLC or Firefox or Chrome or Vivaldi or Opera or Emacs or vi or vim or TextEdit unless I specifically choose to tell them so. > and neither does the same statement apply in real life - "anything and everything a human does IRL is private" is a similarly obviously false statement. I didn't say anything and everything IRL. If you're in your own home then everything you do in your home should be private. Likewise when I'm using my own computer then everything I do in that computer should also be private.
inetknght 5y ago
> The frequency with which I use my mouse to click buttons vs. keyboard shortcuts to invoke functionality in a program is not personal information It absolutely can be uniquely tied to you. Whether or not it is personal information doesn't matter: it is still spyware. > This is not private information. Yes it is. What I do on my own computer is absolutely private information. > Tell me how the Audacity developers knowing that I press a sequence of three buttons in a row enables them to determine that I'm single, or how tall I am, or that I like Polish TV dramas, or literally any other personal information? It's not just three buttons in a row. It's every button over the lifetime of the installation. It's uniquely what buttons you press, where, how long you might hold the mouse button down, what songs you listen to, in what order, did you double-click them or drag them to a playlist or go through a menu; do you set a playlist and forget it or do you interact with the playlist often? Just because you are unable to see how to do it doesn't mean that it can't be done.

by fouric 5y ago

jjav 5y ago

> The frequency with which I use my mouse to click buttons vs. keyboard shortcuts to invoke functionality in a program is not personal information, and a system that collects it is not spyware. It is unquestionably spyware. Any data which leaves my computer without my approval, is spyware. As others have noted, 20 years ago this was not even remotely a question. Any application sending any data at all that wasn't directly part of its functionality would spark outrage. It is sad that somehow spyware has become normalized in some circles. It's never ok.

handrous 5y ago

No software should look over your shoulder on your computer without explicitly asking to do so. This was flatly unacceptable, not all that long ago. I hate that the Overton window on this topic has shifted so far toward spying's side.

fouric 5y ago
Telemetry is not "looking over your shoulder", because that statement means that private data is being leaked, which is excluded by the definition of telemetry. Your statement is misleading and emotionally manipulative at best. You appear to be setting up a straw-man argument of what "telemetry" is, and then knocking it down again. Let me state it explicitly: "telemetry" does not include any personal data. Programs that collect "telemetry" that includes personal data are lying - and that has nothing to do with an actual argument about telemetry.
- inetknght 5y ago
  > which is excluded by the definition of telemetry Most users are simply incapable of understanding how the data can be used. They cannot agree to something they do not understand. What users do and how is being stolen and used for purposes that they do not agree to. The definition of private information is anything and everything that the user does. It's not a "data leak". It's straight up theft. Telemetry, by definition, is a theft of private information.
  - fouric 5y ago
    > The definition of private information is anything and everything that the user does. This is absolutely absurd and completely false. It is not private information that I am running a copy of Audacity or Firefox or Emacs (quite the opposite, I want people to know that I use the superior text editor), and neither does the same statement apply in real life - "anything and everything a human does IRL is private" is a similarly obviously false statement. > Telemetry, by definition, is a theft of private information. Again, false, because telemetry is defined as non-private data. Neither, in fact, does "telemetry" imply non-consent - you can have opt-out or opt-in telemetry, and either one can have a prompt that is shown to the user on program start-up.
    - inetknght 5y ago
      > This is absolutely absurd and completely false. No, it is neither absurd nor false. > It is not private information that I am running a copy of Audacity or Firefox or Emacs (quite the opposite, I want people to know that I use the superior text editor) That's your choice. But your choice should not be imposed upon others. Not everyone wants others to know what software they use. I don't want others to know whether I use Audacity or WinAmp or Clementine or VLC or Firefox or Chrome or Vivaldi or Opera or Emacs or vi or vim or TextEdit unless I specifically choose to tell them so. > and neither does the same statement apply in real life - "anything and everything a human does IRL is private" is a similarly obviously false statement. I didn't say anything and everything IRL. If you're in your own home then everything you do in your home should be private. Likewise when I'm using my own computer then everything I do in that computer should also be private.

inetknght 5y ago

> The frequency with which I use my mouse to click buttons vs. keyboard shortcuts to invoke functionality in a program is not personal information It absolutely can be uniquely tied to you. Whether or not it is personal information doesn't matter: it is still spyware. > This is not private information. Yes it is. What I do on my own computer is absolutely private information. > Tell me how the Audacity developers knowing that I press a sequence of three buttons in a row enables them to determine that I'm single, or how tall I am, or that I like Polish TV dramas, or literally any other personal information? It's not just three buttons in a row. It's every button over the lifetime of the installation. It's uniquely what buttons you press, where, how long you might hold the mouse button down, what songs you listen to, in what order, did you double-click them or drag them to a playlist or go through a menu; do you set a playlist and forget it or do you interact with the playlist often? Just because you are unable to see how to do it doesn't mean that it can't be done.