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I've been working on a startup for years, like the better part of a decade and finding cofounders is like planning where lightning will strike; unless you're al

I've been working on a startup for years, like the better part of a decade and finding cofounders is like planning where lightning will strike; unless you're already in the right place, it's almost impossible. I've tried things like cofounderslab, cold messaging through social DMs and working my network but there's such a small cohort of people who (1) find value in working at a startup, (2) are willing to take equity in the beginning without being paid and (3) believe in your idea enough to want to work hard. I've had to learn how to scale myself into different roles (outside of engineering) to keep going, but it really is an exercise in testing your limits: mentally, physically, emotionally, socially... I hope this is something that actually works. edit: Just to give more context, I have had people who I trusted and who initially signed on to help, but they fell out somewhat quickly due to one of the three things I mentioned above. Most people don't understand how much work goes into actually making a startup happen and flame out pretty quickly...alas...

kcorbitt 5y ago
You're exactly the kind of person we're hoping to help with this. I'd love to get your feedback given your experience with other venues. If you choose to try YC co-founder matching, feel free to send me feedback on what did/didn't work and how we can make it better! kyle@ycombinator.com That goes for anyone else reading this thread as well, of course.
diffstrokes 5y ago
I’ve used starthawk and found good potential matches.
Oras 5y ago
I’m a solo founder right now and I agree with the limits part but at the same time, as you have pointed out, it is similar stress or even more to deal with finding and keeping the right cofounder. Unless both (or all) founders are aligned with the same mission and vision, it will be an emotional rollercoaster that IMO might drag the progress down. For these reasons I find it more comfortable staying solo founder and dealing with all the aspect of running the business.
whoisbuilding 5y ago
What are you building?
stingraycharles 5y ago
Maybe what we really need is some cofounder support group so that we can help each other cope while testing our own limits. If it exists, sign me up!
kirse 5y ago
Most people don't understand how much work goes into actually making a startup happen and flame out pretty quickly Understandable, this problem has worsened over the past 20 years as an increasing number of new grads just see computers == way to get rich quickly || a good job. Crypto is the worst example of this greed-oriented mindset, at least during the dotCom boom you generally had to come with a unique idea instead of just forking a git repo and rebadging it. There used to be a greater degree of intrinsic curiosity that drove most engineers & startup culture, but FAANG ideology has really taken over the bulk of the mind-share around what it means to be in tech. Some of this is not bad because it's been easier than ever to find quality brick-layers who view it as "just a job", but your genuine visionaries who are motivated by excitement about tech and great ideas are increasingly lost in the noise.
- ck_one 5y ago
  "[...]but your genuine visionaries who are motivated by excitement about tech and great ideas are increasingly lost in the noise." Do you have a few tips where a mid twenty SWE can find these type of people in SF and avoid the people who are mostly in it for the money?
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Have a great vision. Communicate it well and often. Branch out of SF.
    - mtnGoat 5y ago
      I’d think branching out of SF is important. It’s kind of a bubble full of the types you aren’t looking for, everyone there migrated there for the big paychecks and probably still need one to cover the big rent.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  It's not limited to FAANG jobs or even tech companies. I volunteer as an advisor to a mentoring group for college students. An increasing number of college students are graduating without ever having worked a job at all. I spend more time than I'd like just mentoring some of these students on the basics of an employee/employer relationship and what's expected of them in a job, such as following through on commitments and communicating with their boss. That said, a FAANG job in tech is a perfectly acceptable career choice. Some internet bubbles like to look down on FAANG jobs or write them off as easy (once you pass the tech interview) but the reality is that they're generally quite challenging and rewarding. Companies aren't throwing huge salaries at people because the jobs are relaxing and the work is easy enough that anyone can do it well. There's nothing wrong with a FAANG job, and being a founder isn't morally superior to other career options. The real problem is when students get average grades at an average university, then take an average job at an average company, then get disappointed when they're not being paid top-1% FAANG salaries like they read about on HN and /r/cscareerquestions for the 4 years they were in college. Most of the students I work with are realistic, but it's a very difficult situation when someone's expectations don't match reality.
yumraj 5y ago
My personal experience has been at at all such online/offline places most people there are ones with an idea/WIP who are looking for folks to join them. I've rarely met someone who wanted to join other's ideas/WIP. Which makes for an interesting dynamics and a very low success rate.
elevatortrim 5y ago
> are willing to take equity in the beginning without being paid I find it difficult to grasp how this is always casually thrown like the majority of people could but choosing not to. What's the thinking behind this? Would not there be lots of people who would love to do this if their basic necessities were somehow met?
- halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
  > but there's such a small cohort of people who...(2) are willing to take equity in the beginning without being paid... I wish there was but like I alluded to, the pool who meet those three criteria isn't big at all. Minus any external funding or being independently wealthy, there's no way to pay potential cofounders and continue to bootstrap the business (they aren't free, have operating expenses).
- itronitron 5y ago
  Yes, but equity-only is going to favor people with wealth which is often associated with connections (to additional sources of wealth).
primitivesuave 5y ago
I think the total lack of payment is the issue you should be addressing. Anyone with enough experience in the industry will know exactly how they should be valuing the equity (at little to nothing). Even a simple hourly stipend at contractor rates on top of a great equity offer is enough to show someone that you are serious and willing to respect their time/contribution.
- halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
  There's just no way I can pay someone, even a pittance. I'm putting in as much as I can just to keep the lights on. I can show people I've been working on this forever, have a full product, business plan and am working toward funding but that still does jack-all. It's unfortunate because I desperately want to pay someone, but it's just not in the cards right now. That's why hopefully the idea itself should help instill some confidence that if we execute, it could become something cool (and profitable). I get the world doesn't usually work like that though, which is why solutions like this might help me find like-minded people.
  - ysavir 5y ago
    How far are you from funding? Being transparent and detailed with people about funding, and what they can expect once funding is achieved, can be helpful in removing doubts.
  - primitivesuave 5y ago
    Thank you for the insight, I can totally relate to the situation. I had a pretty depressing entrepreneurship low which lasted a couple months, where I had to lay off everyone and was the only one left grinding, sleeping at the office, and putting every dollar into rent/expenses. In a Taoist kind of way, you have to know the lows to appreciate the highs. Best of luck to you on your business!
tibiahurried 5y ago
It’s hard to find co-founder or even early employees because financially it is not convenient: at least for the 99% of the startup. There are the lucky ones who managed to be in the right place at the right time, but that’s definitely not the majority. If I really wanted to go through the excruciating pain and insane work required in a startup I’d rather try to work on my own ideas and not for others. But I prefer FAANG rest and vest!
wpietri 5y ago
In my experience, those three things are almost entirely contradictory. Almost everybody interested in working unpaid on an exciting idea is also the kind of person who has exciting ideas. They'll usually want to spend their savings on one of those ideas, not somebody else's. The times I've signed up to help start somebody else's idea for no cash were because I had a long relationship with the people involved. My big tip for people wanting to trade self-made lottery tickets for work is to get external confirmation. Investors, customer commitment, traction, or at least a compelling prototype. This post I wrote in 2012 holds up reasonably well: https://www.quora.com/Where-can-I-find-developers-willing-to-join-my-startup/answer/William-Pietri?share=1 https://www.quora.com/Where-can-I-find-developers-willing-to...
- atatatat 5y ago
  Damn, you're a great writer. Comparing this succinct but informative post and your Quora post makes that very clear.
  - wpietri 5y ago
    Thanks! That's very kind. My suggestion to people is to read widely, so they develop high standards. Then write a lot and be continually frustrated that their own writing doesn't measure up. Repeat this cycle for decades and you will still be frustrated with your own writing, but people will tell you you're a good writer!
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> Most people don't understand how much work goes into actually making a startup happen and flame out pretty quickly...alas... It's not just the amount of work that dissuades people. It's the overall value proposition. Usually if you can get someone in the door and they truly believe the company will be successful, they do everything necessary to cling to the company. No one wants to give up a chance to own a piece of a future successful startup. At minimum, they want some of their equity to vest in exchange for the work they've put in to get to this point. When people believe the company will succeed but don't want to put in the effort, they keep up appearances until their founder vesting cliff. It's unfortunately a common problem for startups to have a zombie cofounder who doesn't want to give up their equity but isn't pulling their way. They want to force the other cofounders to give them their equity as compensation for the (minimal) work they put in. If cofounders are simply walking away and surrendering equity, it's likely that there are bigger problems than just the amount of work. In these cases, it's likely that the cofounders just didn't believe the company was headed for success.

kcorbitt 5y ago

You're exactly the kind of person we're hoping to help with this. I'd love to get your feedback given your experience with other venues. If you choose to try YC co-founder matching, feel free to send me feedback on what did/didn't work and how we can make it better! kyle@ycombinator.com That goes for anyone else reading this thread as well, of course.

diffstrokes 5y ago

I’ve used starthawk and found good potential matches.

Oras 5y ago

I’m a solo founder right now and I agree with the limits part but at the same time, as you have pointed out, it is similar stress or even more to deal with finding and keeping the right cofounder. Unless both (or all) founders are aligned with the same mission and vision, it will be an emotional rollercoaster that IMO might drag the progress down. For these reasons I find it more comfortable staying solo founder and dealing with all the aspect of running the business.

whoisbuilding 5y ago

What are you building?

stingraycharles 5y ago

Maybe what we really need is some cofounder support group so that we can help each other cope while testing our own limits. If it exists, sign me up!

kirse 5y ago

Most people don't understand how much work goes into actually making a startup happen and flame out pretty quickly Understandable, this problem has worsened over the past 20 years as an increasing number of new grads just see computers == way to get rich quickly || a good job. Crypto is the worst example of this greed-oriented mindset, at least during the dotCom boom you generally had to come with a unique idea instead of just forking a git repo and rebadging it. There used to be a greater degree of intrinsic curiosity that drove most engineers & startup culture, but FAANG ideology has really taken over the bulk of the mind-share around what it means to be in tech. Some of this is not bad because it's been easier than ever to find quality brick-layers who view it as "just a job", but your genuine visionaries who are motivated by excitement about tech and great ideas are increasingly lost in the noise.

ck_one 5y ago
"[...]but your genuine visionaries who are motivated by excitement about tech and great ideas are increasingly lost in the noise." Do you have a few tips where a mid twenty SWE can find these type of people in SF and avoid the people who are mostly in it for the money?
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Have a great vision. Communicate it well and often. Branch out of SF.
  - mtnGoat 5y ago
    I’d think branching out of SF is important. It’s kind of a bubble full of the types you aren’t looking for, everyone there migrated there for the big paychecks and probably still need one to cover the big rent.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
It's not limited to FAANG jobs or even tech companies. I volunteer as an advisor to a mentoring group for college students. An increasing number of college students are graduating without ever having worked a job at all. I spend more time than I'd like just mentoring some of these students on the basics of an employee/employer relationship and what's expected of them in a job, such as following through on commitments and communicating with their boss. That said, a FAANG job in tech is a perfectly acceptable career choice. Some internet bubbles like to look down on FAANG jobs or write them off as easy (once you pass the tech interview) but the reality is that they're generally quite challenging and rewarding. Companies aren't throwing huge salaries at people because the jobs are relaxing and the work is easy enough that anyone can do it well. There's nothing wrong with a FAANG job, and being a founder isn't morally superior to other career options. The real problem is when students get average grades at an average university, then take an average job at an average company, then get disappointed when they're not being paid top-1% FAANG salaries like they read about on HN and /r/cscareerquestions for the 4 years they were in college. Most of the students I work with are realistic, but it's a very difficult situation when someone's expectations don't match reality.

yumraj 5y ago

My personal experience has been at at all such online/offline places most people there are ones with an idea/WIP who are looking for folks to join them. I've rarely met someone who wanted to join other's ideas/WIP. Which makes for an interesting dynamics and a very low success rate.

elevatortrim 5y ago

> are willing to take equity in the beginning without being paid I find it difficult to grasp how this is always casually thrown like the majority of people could but choosing not to. What's the thinking behind this? Would not there be lots of people who would love to do this if their basic necessities were somehow met?

halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
> but there's such a small cohort of people who...(2) are willing to take equity in the beginning without being paid... I wish there was but like I alluded to, the pool who meet those three criteria isn't big at all. Minus any external funding or being independently wealthy, there's no way to pay potential cofounders and continue to bootstrap the business (they aren't free, have operating expenses).
itronitron 5y ago
Yes, but equity-only is going to favor people with wealth which is often associated with connections (to additional sources of wealth).

primitivesuave 5y ago

I think the total lack of payment is the issue you should be addressing. Anyone with enough experience in the industry will know exactly how they should be valuing the equity (at little to nothing). Even a simple hourly stipend at contractor rates on top of a great equity offer is enough to show someone that you are serious and willing to respect their time/contribution.

halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
There's just no way I can pay someone, even a pittance. I'm putting in as much as I can just to keep the lights on. I can show people I've been working on this forever, have a full product, business plan and am working toward funding but that still does jack-all. It's unfortunate because I desperately want to pay someone, but it's just not in the cards right now. That's why hopefully the idea itself should help instill some confidence that if we execute, it could become something cool (and profitable). I get the world doesn't usually work like that though, which is why solutions like this might help me find like-minded people.
- ysavir 5y ago
  How far are you from funding? Being transparent and detailed with people about funding, and what they can expect once funding is achieved, can be helpful in removing doubts.
- primitivesuave 5y ago
  Thank you for the insight, I can totally relate to the situation. I had a pretty depressing entrepreneurship low which lasted a couple months, where I had to lay off everyone and was the only one left grinding, sleeping at the office, and putting every dollar into rent/expenses. In a Taoist kind of way, you have to know the lows to appreciate the highs. Best of luck to you on your business!

tibiahurried 5y ago

It’s hard to find co-founder or even early employees because financially it is not convenient: at least for the 99% of the startup. There are the lucky ones who managed to be in the right place at the right time, but that’s definitely not the majority. If I really wanted to go through the excruciating pain and insane work required in a startup I’d rather try to work on my own ideas and not for others. But I prefer FAANG rest and vest!

wpietri 5y ago

In my experience, those three things are almost entirely contradictory. Almost everybody interested in working unpaid on an exciting idea is also the kind of person who has exciting ideas. They'll usually want to spend their savings on one of those ideas, not somebody else's. The times I've signed up to help start somebody else's idea for no cash were because I had a long relationship with the people involved. My big tip for people wanting to trade self-made lottery tickets for work is to get external confirmation. Investors, customer commitment, traction, or at least a compelling prototype. This post I wrote in 2012 holds up reasonably well: https://www.quora.com/Where-can-I-find-developers-willing-to-join-my-startup/answer/William-Pietri?share=1 https://www.quora.com/Where-can-I-find-developers-willing-to...

atatatat 5y ago
Damn, you're a great writer. Comparing this succinct but informative post and your Quora post makes that very clear.
- wpietri 5y ago
  Thanks! That's very kind. My suggestion to people is to read widely, so they develop high standards. Then write a lot and be continually frustrated that their own writing doesn't measure up. Repeat this cycle for decades and you will still be frustrated with your own writing, but people will tell you you're a good writer!

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> Most people don't understand how much work goes into actually making a startup happen and flame out pretty quickly...alas... It's not just the amount of work that dissuades people. It's the overall value proposition. Usually if you can get someone in the door and they truly believe the company will be successful, they do everything necessary to cling to the company. No one wants to give up a chance to own a piece of a future successful startup. At minimum, they want some of their equity to vest in exchange for the work they've put in to get to this point. When people believe the company will succeed but don't want to put in the effort, they keep up appearances until their founder vesting cliff. It's unfortunately a common problem for startups to have a zombie cofounder who doesn't want to give up their equity but isn't pulling their way. They want to force the other cofounders to give them their equity as compensation for the (minimal) work they put in. If cofounders are simply walking away and surrendering equity, it's likely that there are bigger problems than just the amount of work. In these cases, it's likely that the cofounders just didn't believe the company was headed for success.