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"who put in the most effort and demonstrate the highest level of achievement" I've noticed a growing problem with people equating effort with achievement as th

by mentat 15y ago

"who put in the most effort and demonstrate the highest level of achievement" I've noticed a growing problem with people equating effort with achievement as the parent does. Just because one "works really hard" doesn't mean that one creates something of value. I'm not sure where this belief arose from, but it doesn't apply in school and it certainly doesn't apply in life.

jamesbritt 15y ago
In the US at least people are constantly saying that hard work should be rewarded, with no mention of whether the effort produces any particular value. The assumption may be that, well, no one works hard to create _no_ value, but indeed there's at least a lot of misguided hard work that people then think deserves some sort of arbitray reward.
- lyudmil 15y ago
  You commit a fallacy here because your comment (as well as the one it's in reply to) assumes that work is rewarded proportionally to its value. It isn't. If you have the bargaining power to get paid more, you get paid more regardless of your contributions. The assumption you're referring to I think has to do with the question of whether it's moral to reward people for working hard (even if inefficiently). I think there are clear situations where it is moral and necessary to do so. Perhaps not always, but at least sometimes.
  - mentat 15y ago
    How to you propose to measure the value of work? I'm certainly not limiting it to financial remuneration. Whatever the value is measured by, it certainly doesn't correlate to effort. Sometimes something of great value takes much effort, sometimes little, but the value cannot be predicted by the effort. Teaching people that it can is a disservice. In what situations is it a moral necessity to reward people for hard ineffective work? I'm not excluding the possibility, I'd just like to understand what you have in mind.
    - lyudmil 15y ago
      Measuring the value of work is a hard problem and it's politically loaded, so I don't really have a good answer to the "how" question. In my biased opinion, it is morally necessary to reward people for how hard they work at least partially when I consider what most work (jobs) consist of, which is economically disenfranchising hard manual labor. If I am younger and/or healthier and/or genetically stronger I'll be able to have higher throughput at those jobs, creating more value. However, I'm not sure that it's moral for people who are older, sicker, or not as genetically gifted to be rewarded less than me for doing essentially the same job. I'm not talking exclusively about monetary renumeration, just general "rewards". I'm sure not everyone buys into this, but it's what I meant with my earlier comment.
  - jamesbritt 15y ago
    You commit a fallacy here because your comment (as well as the one it's in reply to) assumes that work is rewarded proportionally to its value. No, I nor my comment don't assume any such thing. You commit a fallacy by assuming that because I do not think people should expect work to be rewarded in proportion to how hard it is that therefore I think work is rewarded in proportion to how valuable it is. If only. Work is perhaps more likely to be rewarded based on greater value, but one has to make the case for the reward. Most of the time claiming "It's hard" as the reason will not get you much reward. If you have the bargaining power to get paid more, you get paid more regardless of your contributions. No kidding; this is part of my point. Unfortunately there are cultural tropes that keep people from learning this sooner rather than later.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
nostrademons 15y ago
I agree in general, but remember that we're talking about an MBA program here. Just what "value" is there to be created sitting in class? The point of schooling is to develop the skills that will help you in the real world. Hard work is one of those skills; it's not outside the realm of plausibility that schools should incent it. (FWIW, cheating - when you don't get caught - is another one of them. Maybe schools should incent cheating and teach you how to not get caught. Oh wait, they do. Mission fucking accomplished. ;-/)
- mentat 15y ago
  Though I certainly can't speak with authority about what might constitute value in an MBA program, I would think it would be the ability to understand systems and their organization and to think creatively about solutions to complex problems. I'm probably wildly optimistic.
  - nostrademons 15y ago
    From what I've heard from friends and coworkers who've gone to HBS - the value of the MBA is almost entirely in the network, in getting to know all the other folks who also got into Harvard. (This is perhaps a little bit less valuable at NYU, but the general principle still applies.) Logically, therefore, if you want to maximize value as an MBA program, you should have your students party all day. Which may not be all that far from the current truth. The classroom aspects of the MBA have been uniformly criticized by the people I know that've gone through them, except for the few idiots who believe every business situation is like a case study and then run their businesses into the ground basing decisions on that. Business is just too complex to reduce to classroom principles. I think Marc Andreesen once wrote on his blog that at the time the executive makes the decision that an HBS case study will eventually be based upon, he has less than 10% of the information that the students who will eventually be critiquing him have.
bluedanieru 15y ago
I don't think he's conflating effort with achievement, rather actually doing the work, with earning the grade he got, or rather not getting the grade he should have.

by mentat 15y ago

jamesbritt 15y ago

In the US at least people are constantly saying that hard work should be rewarded, with no mention of whether the effort produces any particular value. The assumption may be that, well, no one works hard to create _no_ value, but indeed there's at least a lot of misguided hard work that people then think deserves some sort of arbitray reward.

lyudmil 15y ago
You commit a fallacy here because your comment (as well as the one it's in reply to) assumes that work is rewarded proportionally to its value. It isn't. If you have the bargaining power to get paid more, you get paid more regardless of your contributions. The assumption you're referring to I think has to do with the question of whether it's moral to reward people for working hard (even if inefficiently). I think there are clear situations where it is moral and necessary to do so. Perhaps not always, but at least sometimes.
- mentat 15y ago
  How to you propose to measure the value of work? I'm certainly not limiting it to financial remuneration. Whatever the value is measured by, it certainly doesn't correlate to effort. Sometimes something of great value takes much effort, sometimes little, but the value cannot be predicted by the effort. Teaching people that it can is a disservice. In what situations is it a moral necessity to reward people for hard ineffective work? I'm not excluding the possibility, I'd just like to understand what you have in mind.
  - lyudmil 15y ago
    Measuring the value of work is a hard problem and it's politically loaded, so I don't really have a good answer to the "how" question. In my biased opinion, it is morally necessary to reward people for how hard they work at least partially when I consider what most work (jobs) consist of, which is economically disenfranchising hard manual labor. If I am younger and/or healthier and/or genetically stronger I'll be able to have higher throughput at those jobs, creating more value. However, I'm not sure that it's moral for people who are older, sicker, or not as genetically gifted to be rewarded less than me for doing essentially the same job. I'm not talking exclusively about monetary renumeration, just general "rewards". I'm sure not everyone buys into this, but it's what I meant with my earlier comment.
- jamesbritt 15y ago
  You commit a fallacy here because your comment (as well as the one it's in reply to) assumes that work is rewarded proportionally to its value. No, I nor my comment don't assume any such thing. You commit a fallacy by assuming that because I do not think people should expect work to be rewarded in proportion to how hard it is that therefore I think work is rewarded in proportion to how valuable it is. If only. Work is perhaps more likely to be rewarded based on greater value, but one has to make the case for the reward. Most of the time claiming "It's hard" as the reason will not get you much reward. If you have the bargaining power to get paid more, you get paid more regardless of your contributions. No kidding; this is part of my point. Unfortunately there are cultural tropes that keep people from learning this sooner rather than later.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

nostrademons 15y ago

I agree in general, but remember that we're talking about an MBA program here. Just what "value" is there to be created sitting in class? The point of schooling is to develop the skills that will help you in the real world. Hard work is one of those skills; it's not outside the realm of plausibility that schools should incent it. (FWIW, cheating - when you don't get caught - is another one of them. Maybe schools should incent cheating and teach you how to not get caught. Oh wait, they do. Mission fucking accomplished. ;-/)

mentat 15y ago
Though I certainly can't speak with authority about what might constitute value in an MBA program, I would think it would be the ability to understand systems and their organization and to think creatively about solutions to complex problems. I'm probably wildly optimistic.
- nostrademons 15y ago
  From what I've heard from friends and coworkers who've gone to HBS - the value of the MBA is almost entirely in the network, in getting to know all the other folks who also got into Harvard. (This is perhaps a little bit less valuable at NYU, but the general principle still applies.) Logically, therefore, if you want to maximize value as an MBA program, you should have your students party all day. Which may not be all that far from the current truth. The classroom aspects of the MBA have been uniformly criticized by the people I know that've gone through them, except for the few idiots who believe every business situation is like a case study and then run their businesses into the ground basing decisions on that. Business is just too complex to reduce to classroom principles. I think Marc Andreesen once wrote on his blog that at the time the executive makes the decision that an HBS case study will eventually be based upon, he has less than 10% of the information that the students who will eventually be critiquing him have.

bluedanieru 15y ago

I don't think he's conflating effort with achievement, rather actually doing the work, with earning the grade he got, or rather not getting the grade he should have.