4 ms·

> What a load of hyperbolic junk this is. Microsoft is trying to ensure consistency for people that buy Windows laptops. We can debate whether that is a smart m

> What a load of hyperbolic junk this is. Microsoft is trying to ensure consistency for people that buy Windows laptops. We can debate whether that is a smart move or not, but descending into 1984 fear-baiting is just nonsense. Over the past few years we've seen Microsoft adopt increasingly user-hostile practices when it comes to privacy. It's not unreasonable to be concerned that this initiative will morph into something nefarious. We went from "you need to have a network interface so you can activate the OS" to "Track all the things and phone home" in less than a decade.

mfer 5y ago
How does Windows track all the things? What of the information they do collect doesn't have an opt-in/out? The opt-in/out is part of the setup process (in the cases I've seen) so it's not hidden away. I'm not a Windows fan or anything like that. Don't even use Windows as one of my main systems. I'm just dealing with it so I've seen some of these things.
- monocasa 5y ago
  It has a really bad habit of resetting the opt-outs on updates, so about every six months.
- lp0_on_fire 5y ago
  https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/data-collection-windows https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/data-collection-windows Goes into more detail as to what they collect. Browsing data, devices connected to the system, what you type, or transcribe via text or ink (speech to text, handwriting to text etc), what applications you're running and for how long. > The opt-in/out is part of the setup process (in the cases I've seen) so it's not hidden away. It gets reset _literally_ every time they push out a larger update. They prompt you with a modal form that defaults to tracking turned on (even though I had it turned off to begin with). Guess someone at Microsoft figured out that the tech-literate among us were turning that setting off as soon as our non-tech-literate family/friends took their PCs out of the box around the Christmas tree.
afavour 5y ago
> It's not unreasonable to be concerned that this initiative will morph into something nefarious. It kind of is, though. It's a classic slippery slope fallacy. Collecting user telemetry and spying on users via webcams you force hardware manufacturers to install in machines are miles, miles, miles apart from each other. I'm not trying to defend MS's telemetry collection here, I don't like it either. But the extrapolation is hyperbolic.
- lp0_on_fire 5y ago
  "They aren't requiring a network interface to collect telemetry - that's a slippery slope" was a common refrain a decade ago, too.
  - afavour 5y ago
    Yes.. and they weren't requiring a network interface in order to collect telemetry. They were requiring a network interface in order for Windows laptop purchasers to know that they'd be able to connect to the internet.
- ajkdhcb2 5y ago
  https://www.engadget.com/2019-03-21-preshow-free-movie-tickets.html https://www.engadget.com/2019-03-21-preshow-free-movie-ticke... >The company has developed a way to track your gaze to make sure you're actually looking at the PreShow commercial. The app also places a green border around the edges of your screen to confirm that it sees you. If you look away for too long, or leave your seat, the ad automatically pauses and you'll get a red border around your screen. This horrific shit is all ready to go, I think there is no hyperbole or irrational slippery slope at all
- swiley 5y ago
  There's currently a landslide going on WRT OS vendors and privacy, I wouldn't call any "slippery slopes" a fallacy at this point.
Arnt 5y ago
This is also the Microsoft that IMO has the best, most user-friendly approach to keeping the computer as the user wants it, while allowing the changes the user wants. Debian didn't impress me when I upgraded my main workstation recently. A long list of important prompts and not so important prompts, enough to make me click "ok, whatever, get on with it". (Oh, and even Debian also requires a network interface and contains a phone-home package. Getting security fixes without a normal network interface is a Challenge, and security fixes aren't really optional these day.)
- layer8 5y ago
  > Oh, and even Debian also requires a network interface and contains a phone-home package. Getting security fixes without a normal network interface is a Challenge, and security fixes aren't really optional these day. I’d say security fixes are rather optional these days if you have no network interface.
  - Arnt 5y ago
    Certainly, but does that matter at all? Can you even buy one? You certainly can buy a new laptop on Amazon, open it, remove the WLAN antenna, glue the USB plug(s) and need no security fixes. But at that point you're far from the mainstream. And I am impressed by how Microsoft manages to provide decent security in a user-friendly way, one that expects little unrealistic behaviour and doesn't restrict the term "user" to people far from the mainstream.

mfer 5y ago

How does Windows track all the things? What of the information they do collect doesn't have an opt-in/out? The opt-in/out is part of the setup process (in the cases I've seen) so it's not hidden away. I'm not a Windows fan or anything like that. Don't even use Windows as one of my main systems. I'm just dealing with it so I've seen some of these things.

monocasa 5y ago
It has a really bad habit of resetting the opt-outs on updates, so about every six months.
lp0_on_fire 5y ago
https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/data-collection-windows https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/data-collection-windows Goes into more detail as to what they collect. Browsing data, devices connected to the system, what you type, or transcribe via text or ink (speech to text, handwriting to text etc), what applications you're running and for how long. > The opt-in/out is part of the setup process (in the cases I've seen) so it's not hidden away. It gets reset _literally_ every time they push out a larger update. They prompt you with a modal form that defaults to tracking turned on (even though I had it turned off to begin with). Guess someone at Microsoft figured out that the tech-literate among us were turning that setting off as soon as our non-tech-literate family/friends took their PCs out of the box around the Christmas tree.

afavour 5y ago

> It's not unreasonable to be concerned that this initiative will morph into something nefarious. It kind of is, though. It's a classic slippery slope fallacy. Collecting user telemetry and spying on users via webcams you force hardware manufacturers to install in machines are miles, miles, miles apart from each other. I'm not trying to defend MS's telemetry collection here, I don't like it either. But the extrapolation is hyperbolic.

lp0_on_fire 5y ago
"They aren't requiring a network interface to collect telemetry - that's a slippery slope" was a common refrain a decade ago, too.
- afavour 5y ago
  Yes.. and they weren't requiring a network interface in order to collect telemetry. They were requiring a network interface in order for Windows laptop purchasers to know that they'd be able to connect to the internet.
ajkdhcb2 5y ago
https://www.engadget.com/2019-03-21-preshow-free-movie-tickets.html https://www.engadget.com/2019-03-21-preshow-free-movie-ticke... >The company has developed a way to track your gaze to make sure you're actually looking at the PreShow commercial. The app also places a green border around the edges of your screen to confirm that it sees you. If you look away for too long, or leave your seat, the ad automatically pauses and you'll get a red border around your screen. This horrific shit is all ready to go, I think there is no hyperbole or irrational slippery slope at all
swiley 5y ago
There's currently a landslide going on WRT OS vendors and privacy, I wouldn't call any "slippery slopes" a fallacy at this point.

Arnt 5y ago

This is also the Microsoft that IMO has the best, most user-friendly approach to keeping the computer as the user wants it, while allowing the changes the user wants. Debian didn't impress me when I upgraded my main workstation recently. A long list of important prompts and not so important prompts, enough to make me click "ok, whatever, get on with it". (Oh, and even Debian also requires a network interface and contains a phone-home package. Getting security fixes without a normal network interface is a Challenge, and security fixes aren't really optional these day.)

layer8 5y ago
> Oh, and even Debian also requires a network interface and contains a phone-home package. Getting security fixes without a normal network interface is a Challenge, and security fixes aren't really optional these day. I’d say security fixes are rather optional these days if you have no network interface.
- Arnt 5y ago
  Certainly, but does that matter at all? Can you even buy one? You certainly can buy a new laptop on Amazon, open it, remove the WLAN antenna, glue the USB plug(s) and need no security fixes. But at that point you're far from the mainstream. And I am impressed by how Microsoft manages to provide decent security in a user-friendly way, one that expects little unrealistic behaviour and doesn't restrict the term "user" to people far from the mainstream.