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> There's a distinct difference; software with telemetry gathers how you use that particular application That is spyware. How I use an application should not b

> There's a distinct difference; software with telemetry gathers how you use that particular application That is spyware. How I use an application should not be anyone's business. It's a hop-skip-and-a-jump to learn private information from how software is used. For example: do you hover your mouse over an icon? Do you let it linger for a unique amount of time? Do you have a particular writing style? Do you have a particular time between each keystroke? When you crash the application do you just re-open it or go do something different? Do you exit the application cleanly or do you power off the computer? Do you use the application without a license? Does your computer clock magically change? Does your computer location move? Do you travel between cities a lot, or even countries? Do you interact with the application in one location but leave it in the background in another location? Do you talk while the application is in use? Do your eyes follow your cursor? Are your eyes looking at the application while you're using it? Do you talk about other products while using the application? ALL of this is private information. Telemetry is just a hop-skip-and-a-jump to data mining.

fouric 5y ago
> That is spyware. I strongly disagree. The frequency with which I use my mouse to click buttons vs. keyboard shortcuts to invoke functionality in a program is not personal information, and a system that collects it is not spyware. > For example: do you hover your mouse over an icon? This is not private information. In fact, about half of the things you indicated are clearly not. What you're describing are points of data collection that could be used for fingerprinting, which is an entirely separate issue, and can be defeated relatively easily (by adding noise, not recording some pieces of data, and aggregating others). > Does your computer location move? Do you travel between cities a lot, or even countries? The other half of the things that you describe are actual spying and wouldn't be called telemetry anyway. This is a strawman argument. > It's a hop-skip-and-a-jump to learn private information from how software is used. Tell me how the Audacity developers knowing that I press a sequence of three buttons in a row enables them to determine that I'm single, or how tall I am, or that I like Polish TV dramas, or literally any other personal information? This is an absurd fallacy. Even assuming that the developers somehow managed to sneak in granular enough telemetry (ignoring real keyloggers, because again, we're talking about telemetry) that they could fingerprint you, literally the only thing that allows them to do is identify when a the same person uses Audacity on multiple machines. There's no leakage of actual personal information.
- jjav 5y ago
  > The frequency with which I use my mouse to click buttons vs. keyboard shortcuts to invoke functionality in a program is not personal information, and a system that collects it is not spyware. It is unquestionably spyware. Any data which leaves my computer without my approval, is spyware. As others have noted, 20 years ago this was not even remotely a question. Any application sending any data at all that wasn't directly part of its functionality would spark outrage. It is sad that somehow spyware has become normalized in some circles. It's never ok.
- handrous 5y ago
  No software should look over your shoulder on your computer without explicitly asking to do so. This was flatly unacceptable, not all that long ago. I hate that the Overton window on this topic has shifted so far toward spying's side.
  - fouric 5y ago
    Telemetry is not "looking over your shoulder", because that statement means that private data is being leaked, which is excluded by the definition of telemetry. Your statement is misleading and emotionally manipulative at best. You appear to be setting up a straw-man argument of what "telemetry" is, and then knocking it down again. Let me state it explicitly: "telemetry" does not include any personal data. Programs that collect "telemetry" that includes personal data are lying - and that has nothing to do with an actual argument about telemetry.
    - inetknght 5y ago
      > which is excluded by the definition of telemetry Most users are simply incapable of understanding how the data can be used. They cannot agree to something they do not understand. What users do and how is being stolen and used for purposes that they do not agree to. The definition of private information is anything and everything that the user does. It's not a "data leak". It's straight up theft. Telemetry, by definition, is a theft of private information.

fouric 5y ago

> That is spyware. I strongly disagree. The frequency with which I use my mouse to click buttons vs. keyboard shortcuts to invoke functionality in a program is not personal information, and a system that collects it is not spyware. > For example: do you hover your mouse over an icon? This is not private information. In fact, about half of the things you indicated are clearly not. What you're describing are points of data collection that could be used for fingerprinting, which is an entirely separate issue, and can be defeated relatively easily (by adding noise, not recording some pieces of data, and aggregating others). > Does your computer location move? Do you travel between cities a lot, or even countries? The other half of the things that you describe are actual spying and wouldn't be called telemetry anyway. This is a strawman argument. > It's a hop-skip-and-a-jump to learn private information from how software is used. Tell me how the Audacity developers knowing that I press a sequence of three buttons in a row enables them to determine that I'm single, or how tall I am, or that I like Polish TV dramas, or literally any other personal information? This is an absurd fallacy. Even assuming that the developers somehow managed to sneak in granular enough telemetry (ignoring real keyloggers, because again, we're talking about telemetry) that they could fingerprint you, literally the only thing that allows them to do is identify when a the same person uses Audacity on multiple machines. There's no leakage of actual personal information.

jjav 5y ago
> The frequency with which I use my mouse to click buttons vs. keyboard shortcuts to invoke functionality in a program is not personal information, and a system that collects it is not spyware. It is unquestionably spyware. Any data which leaves my computer without my approval, is spyware. As others have noted, 20 years ago this was not even remotely a question. Any application sending any data at all that wasn't directly part of its functionality would spark outrage. It is sad that somehow spyware has become normalized in some circles. It's never ok.
handrous 5y ago
No software should look over your shoulder on your computer without explicitly asking to do so. This was flatly unacceptable, not all that long ago. I hate that the Overton window on this topic has shifted so far toward spying's side.
- fouric 5y ago
  Telemetry is not "looking over your shoulder", because that statement means that private data is being leaked, which is excluded by the definition of telemetry. Your statement is misleading and emotionally manipulative at best. You appear to be setting up a straw-man argument of what "telemetry" is, and then knocking it down again. Let me state it explicitly: "telemetry" does not include any personal data. Programs that collect "telemetry" that includes personal data are lying - and that has nothing to do with an actual argument about telemetry.
  - inetknght 5y ago
    > which is excluded by the definition of telemetry Most users are simply incapable of understanding how the data can be used. They cannot agree to something they do not understand. What users do and how is being stolen and used for purposes that they do not agree to. The definition of private information is anything and everything that the user does. It's not a "data leak". It's straight up theft. Telemetry, by definition, is a theft of private information.