3 ms·

If that was the norm then people would opt in. But the trust is gone now, bad actors have ruined it for everyone. And the solution to that is not to enable it b

by tjoff 5y ago

If that was the norm then people would opt in. But the trust is gone now, bad actors have ruined it for everyone. And the solution to that is not to enable it by default.

nlarew 5y ago
Most people have no idea what "the norm" or "telemetry" even is so I highly doubt this would affect opt-in rates at all.
adkadskhj 5y ago
I think this might be the winning argument. There may not be any meaningful reason for telemetry to outweigh the bad actors and damage they've done. For me, i'd love to enable telemetry for some of my more liked, FOSS apps - but even with those my question immediately arises "What are you sending?". Without someway to monitor, are they sending filenames? Are they sending file contents? How much is it? etcetc To satisfy my questions i need some sort of router-enabled monitoring of all telemetry specific traffic. So i can individually approve types of info... and that seems difficult. But the days of blanket allowances from me are long gone due to the bad actors.
- ryandrake 5y ago
  Excellent point. As a user, here are my requirements if you want me to opt into your data collection scheme: 1. All exfiltration of data must be under my direct control, each time it happens. You can collect all the data you want in the background, but any time it is transmitted to the company, I must give consent and issue a command to do it (or click a button). 2. All data that is exfiltrated must be described in detail before it is exfiltrated. "Diagnostic data" isn't good enough. List everything. Stack trace? Crash report? Memory dump? Personal info (list them all out)? Location information? Images (what are they, screenshots? from my camera?) Time stamps from each collection. If it's nebulous "feature usage data" then list each activity that is being logged (localized in my language). Lay them all out for me or I'm not going to press that Submit button. 3. I need to be able to verify that #2 is accurate, so save that dump to disk somewhere I can analyze later. 4. The identifiers used to submit this data should be disclosed. Is a unique user id required to upload? Do you link subsequent uploads to the same unique id? Is that id in any way associated with me as an account or as a person in your backend? I want you to disclose all of this. 5. For how long do you retain the data I sent? How is this enforced? Is there a way for me to delete the data? How can I ensure that the data gets deleted when I request it to be deleted? 6. Do you monetize the data in any way, and if so, am I entitled to compensation for it? I don't know of many (if any) data collection schemes that meet this bar, yet.
  - throwaways885 5y ago
    I'm fairly sure Android crash reporting is all manually done, and even zips it up for you to inspect. But some of these are impossible, e.g. how do you localize a stack trace?
    - david_allison 5y ago
      If you install an app via Google Play, crash reporting & some telemetry are silent and enabled by default. This is in addition to any crash reporting built into the app. https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/6078260 https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/6078260
fomine3 5y ago
For ad industry, trust is gone now. But for telemetry? I think most people don't much care.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  Until you realize that most telemetry infrastructure is provided by ad companies (Google Analytics for example).
  - TeMPOraL 5y ago
    That, and additionally, if there's an opportunity to monetize data from (or derived from) telemetry further, companies won't hesitate selling it (or access to it) to third parties. That, and additionally, if the data is stored, it's a question of when, not if, it'll become a part of some data breach. To developers and entrepreneurs feeling surprised by the pushback here, please take a honest look at the state of the software industry. Any trust software companies enjoyed by default is gone now.
- nofunsir 5y ago
  They don’t care because they don’t know.
kazinator 5y ago
Analogy time: in the early days of the Internet, any IP address could send an e-mail by directly connecting to the mail change host listed for the domain of the To: address via SMTP. This was a good, nice thing. Bad agents, spammers, ruined that. The trust is gone, and wow it's a terrible idea to accept SMTP connections from any random IP addresses. Legitimate senders have to "opt in" to the SMTP sending system by getting a static IP of good repute, or else using a forwarding host which has those attributes.

by tjoff 5y ago

If that was the norm then people would opt in. But the trust is gone now, bad actors have ruined it for everyone. And the solution to that is not to enable it by default.

nlarew 5y ago

Most people have no idea what "the norm" or "telemetry" even is so I highly doubt this would affect opt-in rates at all.

adkadskhj 5y ago

I think this might be the winning argument. There may not be any meaningful reason for telemetry to outweigh the bad actors and damage they've done. For me, i'd love to enable telemetry for some of my more liked, FOSS apps - but even with those my question immediately arises "What are you sending?". Without someway to monitor, are they sending filenames? Are they sending file contents? How much is it? etcetc To satisfy my questions i need some sort of router-enabled monitoring of all telemetry specific traffic. So i can individually approve types of info... and that seems difficult. But the days of blanket allowances from me are long gone due to the bad actors.

ryandrake 5y ago
Excellent point. As a user, here are my requirements if you want me to opt into your data collection scheme: 1. All exfiltration of data must be under my direct control, each time it happens. You can collect all the data you want in the background, but any time it is transmitted to the company, I must give consent and issue a command to do it (or click a button). 2. All data that is exfiltrated must be described in detail before it is exfiltrated. "Diagnostic data" isn't good enough. List everything. Stack trace? Crash report? Memory dump? Personal info (list them all out)? Location information? Images (what are they, screenshots? from my camera?) Time stamps from each collection. If it's nebulous "feature usage data" then list each activity that is being logged (localized in my language). Lay them all out for me or I'm not going to press that Submit button. 3. I need to be able to verify that #2 is accurate, so save that dump to disk somewhere I can analyze later. 4. The identifiers used to submit this data should be disclosed. Is a unique user id required to upload? Do you link subsequent uploads to the same unique id? Is that id in any way associated with me as an account or as a person in your backend? I want you to disclose all of this. 5. For how long do you retain the data I sent? How is this enforced? Is there a way for me to delete the data? How can I ensure that the data gets deleted when I request it to be deleted? 6. Do you monetize the data in any way, and if so, am I entitled to compensation for it? I don't know of many (if any) data collection schemes that meet this bar, yet.
- throwaways885 5y ago
  I'm fairly sure Android crash reporting is all manually done, and even zips it up for you to inspect. But some of these are impossible, e.g. how do you localize a stack trace?
  - david_allison 5y ago
    If you install an app via Google Play, crash reporting & some telemetry are silent and enabled by default. This is in addition to any crash reporting built into the app. https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/6078260 https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/6078260

fomine3 5y ago

For ad industry, trust is gone now. But for telemetry? I think most people don't much care.

Nextgrid 5y ago
Until you realize that most telemetry infrastructure is provided by ad companies (Google Analytics for example).
- TeMPOraL 5y ago
  That, and additionally, if there's an opportunity to monetize data from (or derived from) telemetry further, companies won't hesitate selling it (or access to it) to third parties. That, and additionally, if the data is stored, it's a question of when, not if, it'll become a part of some data breach. To developers and entrepreneurs feeling surprised by the pushback here, please take a honest look at the state of the software industry. Any trust software companies enjoyed by default is gone now.
nofunsir 5y ago
They don’t care because they don’t know.

kazinator 5y ago

Analogy time: in the early days of the Internet, any IP address could send an e-mail by directly connecting to the mail change host listed for the domain of the To: address via SMTP. This was a good, nice thing. Bad agents, spammers, ruined that. The trust is gone, and wow it's a terrible idea to accept SMTP connections from any random IP addresses. Legitimate senders have to "opt in" to the SMTP sending system by getting a static IP of good repute, or else using a forwarding host which has those attributes.