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I realize the article is specifically about the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine and the delta variant, but even in more general articles about immunity, 'natural immuni

by eggy 5y ago

I realize the article is specifically about the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine and the delta variant, but even in more general articles about immunity, 'natural immunity' is left out of the conversation[1]. You can carry your COVID test paperwork and latest antibody test to show you are equally, if not better protected, however, it strangely is ignored. Or, a study by a vaccine producer (NOVAX), comes up with evidence that natural immunity is not as effective. Pfizer is projected to do about $15bn worth of business with a 30% profit margin by year's end [2,3]. I think following the money and opinions of certain groups says a lot about their motivations, and not the science they claim to perform. It takes 3 to 7 years to see some negative consequences of vaccines, and the COVID vaccines only have 7 months, since the first vaccine was given, and limited testing and populations before approval to vaccinate the general public. I hope for my family's sake and others, these side effects don't materialize. NOTE: Open a private browsing window to forego the paywalls/registration popups for the links below: [1] https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/92836 https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/92836 [2] https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/13/business/business-of-covid-vaccine/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/13/business/business-of-covid-va... [3] https://www.thenation.com/article/world/covid-vaccines-pharma/ https://www.thenation.com/article/world/covid-vaccines-pharm...

neogodless 5y ago
> It takes 3 to 7 years to see some negative consequences of vaccines I tried some Google Fu but all I came up with was this: https://www.chop.edu/news/long-term-side-effects-covid-19-vaccine https://www.chop.edu/news/long-term-side-effects-covid-19-va... > The history of vaccines shows that delayed effects following vaccination can occur. But when they do, these effects tend to happen within two months of vaccination > These experiences demonstrate two important findings. First, when these events occurred, the onset was within eight weeks of receipt of the vaccine.
- samatman 5y ago
  The nightmare scenario is antibody-dependent enhancement of a mutated strain of NCov-SARS-2, or a related coronavirus. It's impossible, of course, to test for this. However unlikely it might be (not keeping me up at night, to put it mildly), this would be a negative vaccine consequence which wouldn't reveal itself until whenever said related virus broke out into the population.
- eggy 5y ago
  This is the first mRNA vaccine; it cannot be measured by the same standards as a standard vaccine. Per your first comment, see Johnson&Johnson's own website[0] for typical time periods for vaccine testing and approval. Phase 1, Preclinical stage can usually take up to 4 years, but mRNA circumvents a lot of this, and J&J did it from end of January 2020 to end of March 2020. Phase 1/2a usually takes several months to a year. I am not talking about immediate side effects that a lot of people experience, but possible, long term effects we cannot know at this point in a novel vaccine. We are getting reports of pericarditis and myocarditis emerging in otherwise healthy young males. Rare given the number of vaccines given, but so then are deaths rare to the same age group this is occurring in [1], and we've only been giving the vaccine for almost 7 months (first vaccine Dec. 14, 2020). There have been 326 deaths in 0 to 17 year olds in the US as of June 30, 2021. That's 9.939e-7 or 9.939e-5 percent based on a US population of 326m. By comparison and for perspective of risk/benefit, there were 792 deaths by pneumonia in the same age bracket in the US. Why rush to vaccinate our young and healthy, and those healthy, young people who have already had COVID? On the positive side, mRNA vaccines take away the risk associated with making vaccines the traditional way in the handling of live virus to produce a traditional vaccine, allow for transmitting the formula electronically anywhere to be made by a suitable laboratory, and production can be sped up. I am excited by its future to fight disease and save lives, however, it's just too soon for a push to vaccinate 12 year olds given the risk/benefit analysis and the amount of data to study. I have skin in this game, like most of us, not just improving my Google Fu or points on HN. I have older children who have been vaccinated at ages 21 and 23(even though they had COVID already in late December 2020), and younger ones (2 and 6 years old who I will not vaccinate until more data has been collected and evaluated. The mRNA COVID vaccines seem to have a wider bio-distribution than a traditional vaccine's contents do, specifically in the ovaries of women and in the bone marrow, and only time will tell what this means. It is the first of its kind, so I hardly think it can be evaluated under the same criteria as traditional vaccines. 30% profit margin on $15bn and total immunity for the vaccine companies should something go wrong per the PREP act doesn't give me confidence as a consumer of a novel vaccine. I am not an anti-vaxxer, maybe a anti-novel-vaxxer-without-sufficient-data-and-time person! Given I am otherwise healthy (no diabetes, heart disease, obesity, or other conditions), and my entire immediate family has had COVID, I will play it safe and go with natural immunity until the vaccines have more time under their belt. I am still skeptical on why natural immunity is being pushed to the side. Try finding reputable articles and studies vs. the number of social and regulatory pressures to get vaccinated. Even when antibodies no longer show in some testing, it has been shown that the body has been prepared to deal with future COVID or SARS viruses vs. a first exposure. Natural immunity also triggers based on the entire surface of the virus, and not just the spike protein that the mRNA is engineered to, so it offers a wider response to COVID/SARS than the mRNA vaccine IMHO. [0] https://www.jnj.com/innovation/the-5-stages-of-covid-19-vaccine-development-what-you-need-to-know-about-how-a-clinical-trial-works https://www.jnj.com/innovation/the-5-stages-of-covid-19-vacc... [1] https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex-and-Age/9bhg-hcku https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex...
- sjwalter 5y ago
  https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Vaccines+and+Autoimmunity-p-9781118663431 https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Vaccines+and+Autoimmunity-p-9781... It's so, so strange that otherwise smart people believe that this one giant category of medical technology has no long-term side effects. Like, FDA phase 3 trials are totally superfluous for vaccines, right? Because you can detect all the problems in 2 months! Remember, the medical community can absolutely get things super-wrong in super-damaging ways for huge swaths of the population. OxyContin was for decades called "non-addictive" and prescribed like candy, leading to a nation-wide opiate crisis. The very same pharma community that lead to that is also responsible for making it seem like vaccines are just so insanely great there're never side-effects. (Disclaimer: I am more vaccinated than you, have e.g. yellow fever and rabies vaccines, I love vaccines, but still I'm not touching these vaccines as they have not completed phase 3 FDA trials.)
  - bena 5y ago
    Is that the paper they had retracted due to lack of reproducibility? Or the one where they claim vaccines lead to autism? I forget because the authors have had papers on their vaccine research retracted for various reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehuda_Shoenfeld https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehuda_Shoenfeld https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Shaw_(neuroscientist) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Shaw_(neuroscienti... (It talks about Lucija Tomljenovic in there, but Shaw isn't much better) Or the fact that ASIA hasn't been confirmed by any reproducible study? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoimmune/inflammatory_syndrome_induced_by_adjuvants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoimmune/inflammatory_syndro... You try and stave off criticism to play concern troll by making the claim you are "more vaccinated" than everyone else. But you are peddling junk science about other vaccines to discredit this vaccine.
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
> It takes 3 to 7 years to see some negative consequences of vaccines Can you also cite a source for this claim please?
yosito 5y ago
> the COVID vaccines only have 7 months, since the first vaccine was given Your comment is full of factual inaccuracies, and this one is easy to refute. The first COVID vaccines were given in trials in February 2020, shortly after the SARS-CoV-2 genome was sequenced, and they've already got 17 months of data. Also worth repeating what another commenter said, vaccine side effects always show up in the first two months. You may not trust governments and their narratives. I don't either, and I can still see that the evidence clearly points to these vaccines being safe and effective. There doesn't seem to be much evidence in support of continued living in fear.
- sjwalter 5y ago
  > vaccine side effects always show up in the first two months Uh, what are you talking about? There are huge numbers of vaccine side effects that show up only many years later. Many, many autoimmune issues are caused by vaccines. Here's an entire textbook created by the not-crazy Wiley publishing firm, taught in medical schools around the country, about exactly this: https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Vaccines+and+Autoimmunity-p-9781118663431 https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Vaccines+and+Autoimmunity-p-9781... Stop spreading misinformation during a deadly pandemic, it's dangerous, and you're killing informed consent by lying to people about possible side effects. To boot, even if what you said were true (which it's 100% false), then you'd be talking about an entirely different technology, that being, the various old categories of vaccines. These are entirely new vaccines with at least 3 brand spanking new medical technologies in them (if you count the LNP, which I think you have to).
- eggy 5y ago
  Did you read my statement? "only have 7 months, since the first vaccine was given" was meant to address the first vaccine after approval to the public. The first vaccine was December 14, 2020 in the US. >Your comment is full of factual inaccuracies, Which others do you dispute? >Also worth repeating what another commenter said, vaccine side effects always show up in the first two months. This is a 'novel' vaccine and we do not have enough data on mRNA vaccines administered to the general public to make a blanket statement on its long-term safety. It's your decision to get the vaccine. My argument is I have had COVID, there's evidence natural immunity is equal if not better (it 'knows' the whole surface of the SARS2 virus, not just the 'spike' protein), I am relatively healthy, and although older, not in the top brackets of high mortality for the disease. My children are in the least-affected age brackets, and they have had COVID. Yet, social and regulatory pressures are gaining momentum while ignoring natural immunity. I agree that they appear to be safe in the short term aside from the number of issues that have been reported, but I cannot say, and I don't see how the 'experts' and government can say unequivocally that they are safe in the long term, and then push them on still-developing preteens. Why? >There doesn't seem to be much evidence in support of continued living in fear. I am not living in fear. I feel healthy and not worried about COVID at all for me. I am worried I will have to be vaccinated to keep my job, go to a concert, and shop without restrictions among other liberties. Read my comments following this thread. All of my sources are official government or even the vaccine companies' website. My argument is for not ignoring natural immunity for those who have had COVID already, and being a bit skeptical about data starting to emerge of side effects for a novel vaccine and technology with huge profits to big pharma and a 'get out of jail free' card in the form of the PREP act which gives them immunity from a majority of possible ill effects of the vaccine.

by eggy 5y ago

neogodless 5y ago

> It takes 3 to 7 years to see some negative consequences of vaccines I tried some Google Fu but all I came up with was this: https://www.chop.edu/news/long-term-side-effects-covid-19-vaccine https://www.chop.edu/news/long-term-side-effects-covid-19-va... > The history of vaccines shows that delayed effects following vaccination can occur. But when they do, these effects tend to happen within two months of vaccination > These experiences demonstrate two important findings. First, when these events occurred, the onset was within eight weeks of receipt of the vaccine.

samatman 5y ago
The nightmare scenario is antibody-dependent enhancement of a mutated strain of NCov-SARS-2, or a related coronavirus. It's impossible, of course, to test for this. However unlikely it might be (not keeping me up at night, to put it mildly), this would be a negative vaccine consequence which wouldn't reveal itself until whenever said related virus broke out into the population.
eggy 5y ago
This is the first mRNA vaccine; it cannot be measured by the same standards as a standard vaccine. Per your first comment, see Johnson&Johnson's own website[0] for typical time periods for vaccine testing and approval. Phase 1, Preclinical stage can usually take up to 4 years, but mRNA circumvents a lot of this, and J&J did it from end of January 2020 to end of March 2020. Phase 1/2a usually takes several months to a year. I am not talking about immediate side effects that a lot of people experience, but possible, long term effects we cannot know at this point in a novel vaccine. We are getting reports of pericarditis and myocarditis emerging in otherwise healthy young males. Rare given the number of vaccines given, but so then are deaths rare to the same age group this is occurring in [1], and we've only been giving the vaccine for almost 7 months (first vaccine Dec. 14, 2020). There have been 326 deaths in 0 to 17 year olds in the US as of June 30, 2021. That's 9.939e-7 or 9.939e-5 percent based on a US population of 326m. By comparison and for perspective of risk/benefit, there were 792 deaths by pneumonia in the same age bracket in the US. Why rush to vaccinate our young and healthy, and those healthy, young people who have already had COVID? On the positive side, mRNA vaccines take away the risk associated with making vaccines the traditional way in the handling of live virus to produce a traditional vaccine, allow for transmitting the formula electronically anywhere to be made by a suitable laboratory, and production can be sped up. I am excited by its future to fight disease and save lives, however, it's just too soon for a push to vaccinate 12 year olds given the risk/benefit analysis and the amount of data to study. I have skin in this game, like most of us, not just improving my Google Fu or points on HN. I have older children who have been vaccinated at ages 21 and 23(even though they had COVID already in late December 2020), and younger ones (2 and 6 years old who I will not vaccinate until more data has been collected and evaluated. The mRNA COVID vaccines seem to have a wider bio-distribution than a traditional vaccine's contents do, specifically in the ovaries of women and in the bone marrow, and only time will tell what this means. It is the first of its kind, so I hardly think it can be evaluated under the same criteria as traditional vaccines. 30% profit margin on $15bn and total immunity for the vaccine companies should something go wrong per the PREP act doesn't give me confidence as a consumer of a novel vaccine. I am not an anti-vaxxer, maybe a anti-novel-vaxxer-without-sufficient-data-and-time person! Given I am otherwise healthy (no diabetes, heart disease, obesity, or other conditions), and my entire immediate family has had COVID, I will play it safe and go with natural immunity until the vaccines have more time under their belt. I am still skeptical on why natural immunity is being pushed to the side. Try finding reputable articles and studies vs. the number of social and regulatory pressures to get vaccinated. Even when antibodies no longer show in some testing, it has been shown that the body has been prepared to deal with future COVID or SARS viruses vs. a first exposure. Natural immunity also triggers based on the entire surface of the virus, and not just the spike protein that the mRNA is engineered to, so it offers a wider response to COVID/SARS than the mRNA vaccine IMHO. [0] https://www.jnj.com/innovation/the-5-stages-of-covid-19-vaccine-development-what-you-need-to-know-about-how-a-clinical-trial-works https://www.jnj.com/innovation/the-5-stages-of-covid-19-vacc... [1] https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex-and-Age/9bhg-hcku https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-Sex...
sjwalter 5y ago
https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Vaccines+and+Autoimmunity-p-9781118663431 https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Vaccines+and+Autoimmunity-p-9781... It's so, so strange that otherwise smart people believe that this one giant category of medical technology has no long-term side effects. Like, FDA phase 3 trials are totally superfluous for vaccines, right? Because you can detect all the problems in 2 months! Remember, the medical community can absolutely get things super-wrong in super-damaging ways for huge swaths of the population. OxyContin was for decades called "non-addictive" and prescribed like candy, leading to a nation-wide opiate crisis. The very same pharma community that lead to that is also responsible for making it seem like vaccines are just so insanely great there're never side-effects. (Disclaimer: I am more vaccinated than you, have e.g. yellow fever and rabies vaccines, I love vaccines, but still I'm not touching these vaccines as they have not completed phase 3 FDA trials.)
- bena 5y ago
  Is that the paper they had retracted due to lack of reproducibility? Or the one where they claim vaccines lead to autism? I forget because the authors have had papers on their vaccine research retracted for various reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehuda_Shoenfeld https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehuda_Shoenfeld https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Shaw_(neuroscientist) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Shaw_(neuroscienti... (It talks about Lucija Tomljenovic in there, but Shaw isn't much better) Or the fact that ASIA hasn't been confirmed by any reproducible study? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoimmune/inflammatory_syndrome_induced_by_adjuvants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoimmune/inflammatory_syndro... You try and stave off criticism to play concern troll by making the claim you are "more vaccinated" than everyone else. But you are peddling junk science about other vaccines to discredit this vaccine.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

> It takes 3 to 7 years to see some negative consequences of vaccines Can you also cite a source for this claim please?

yosito 5y ago

> the COVID vaccines only have 7 months, since the first vaccine was given Your comment is full of factual inaccuracies, and this one is easy to refute. The first COVID vaccines were given in trials in February 2020, shortly after the SARS-CoV-2 genome was sequenced, and they've already got 17 months of data. Also worth repeating what another commenter said, vaccine side effects always show up in the first two months. You may not trust governments and their narratives. I don't either, and I can still see that the evidence clearly points to these vaccines being safe and effective. There doesn't seem to be much evidence in support of continued living in fear.

sjwalter 5y ago
> vaccine side effects always show up in the first two months Uh, what are you talking about? There are huge numbers of vaccine side effects that show up only many years later. Many, many autoimmune issues are caused by vaccines. Here's an entire textbook created by the not-crazy Wiley publishing firm, taught in medical schools around the country, about exactly this: https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Vaccines+and+Autoimmunity-p-9781118663431 https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Vaccines+and+Autoimmunity-p-9781... Stop spreading misinformation during a deadly pandemic, it's dangerous, and you're killing informed consent by lying to people about possible side effects. To boot, even if what you said were true (which it's 100% false), then you'd be talking about an entirely different technology, that being, the various old categories of vaccines. These are entirely new vaccines with at least 3 brand spanking new medical technologies in them (if you count the LNP, which I think you have to).
eggy 5y ago
Did you read my statement? "only have 7 months, since the first vaccine was given" was meant to address the first vaccine after approval to the public. The first vaccine was December 14, 2020 in the US. >Your comment is full of factual inaccuracies, Which others do you dispute? >Also worth repeating what another commenter said, vaccine side effects always show up in the first two months. This is a 'novel' vaccine and we do not have enough data on mRNA vaccines administered to the general public to make a blanket statement on its long-term safety. It's your decision to get the vaccine. My argument is I have had COVID, there's evidence natural immunity is equal if not better (it 'knows' the whole surface of the SARS2 virus, not just the 'spike' protein), I am relatively healthy, and although older, not in the top brackets of high mortality for the disease. My children are in the least-affected age brackets, and they have had COVID. Yet, social and regulatory pressures are gaining momentum while ignoring natural immunity. I agree that they appear to be safe in the short term aside from the number of issues that have been reported, but I cannot say, and I don't see how the 'experts' and government can say unequivocally that they are safe in the long term, and then push them on still-developing preteens. Why? >There doesn't seem to be much evidence in support of continued living in fear. I am not living in fear. I feel healthy and not worried about COVID at all for me. I am worried I will have to be vaccinated to keep my job, go to a concert, and shop without restrictions among other liberties. Read my comments following this thread. All of my sources are official government or even the vaccine companies' website. My argument is for not ignoring natural immunity for those who have had COVID already, and being a bit skeptical about data starting to emerge of side effects for a novel vaccine and technology with huge profits to big pharma and a 'get out of jail free' card in the form of the PREP act which gives them immunity from a majority of possible ill effects of the vaccine.