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We have the word spyware, and we used to use it. It applied to software with "telemetry" before creepster marketing dweebs made recording your users' mouse move

We have the word spyware, and we used to use it. It applied to software with "telemetry" before creepster marketing dweebs made recording your users' mouse movements and key-logging them on your website fucking normal so a little "telemetry" seems downright tame by comparison. Software with telemetry is spyware.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago
There's a distinct difference; software with telemetry gathers how you use that particular application, spyware gathers everything you do with your computer. Which is why Windows' telemetry is so controversial. I'm OK with telemetry as long as it's not a communications platform and doesn't forward any work (e.g. code, audio files) I do with it. Telemitry like what buttons or keyboard shortcuts I use, summarized into statistics are fine. I'm not OK with spyware.
- btown 5y ago
  For creativity software, there's a fine line between "what keyboard shortcuts do I press" and "can the sequence of what I'm typing be captured and recreated, and used to target me or steal my work." Muse Group could have laid down very specific ground rules: telemetry will always be opt-in, you'll be able to audit exactly what is sent, it will never contain low-level keystroke information, it will be anonymized before being saved into our database and be impossible to associate with a cloud user login. That would be the opposite of spyware! But they didn't set these ground rules, and now they have this entire uprising on their hands. I'd like to give them the opportunity to do right and learn from this experience. But they also need a wake-up call that they need to work to earn back the community's trust.
- inetknght 5y ago
  > There's a distinct difference; software with telemetry gathers how you use that particular application That is spyware. How I use an application should not be anyone's business. It's a hop-skip-and-a-jump to learn private information from how software is used. For example: do you hover your mouse over an icon? Do you let it linger for a unique amount of time? Do you have a particular writing style? Do you have a particular time between each keystroke? When you crash the application do you just re-open it or go do something different? Do you exit the application cleanly or do you power off the computer? Do you use the application without a license? Does your computer clock magically change? Does your computer location move? Do you travel between cities a lot, or even countries? Do you interact with the application in one location but leave it in the background in another location? Do you talk while the application is in use? Do your eyes follow your cursor? Are your eyes looking at the application while you're using it? Do you talk about other products while using the application? ALL of this is private information. Telemetry is just a hop-skip-and-a-jump to data mining.
  - fouric 5y ago
    > That is spyware. I strongly disagree. The frequency with which I use my mouse to click buttons vs. keyboard shortcuts to invoke functionality in a program is not personal information, and a system that collects it is not spyware. > For example: do you hover your mouse over an icon? This is not private information. In fact, about half of the things you indicated are clearly not. What you're describing are points of data collection that could be used for fingerprinting, which is an entirely separate issue, and can be defeated relatively easily (by adding noise, not recording some pieces of data, and aggregating others). > Does your computer location move? Do you travel between cities a lot, or even countries? The other half of the things that you describe are actual spying and wouldn't be called telemetry anyway. This is a strawman argument. > It's a hop-skip-and-a-jump to learn private information from how software is used. Tell me how the Audacity developers knowing that I press a sequence of three buttons in a row enables them to determine that I'm single, or how tall I am, or that I like Polish TV dramas, or literally any other personal information? This is an absurd fallacy. Even assuming that the developers somehow managed to sneak in granular enough telemetry (ignoring real keyloggers, because again, we're talking about telemetry) that they could fingerprint you, literally the only thing that allows them to do is identify when a the same person uses Audacity on multiple machines. There's no leakage of actual personal information.
    - jjav 5y ago
      > The frequency with which I use my mouse to click buttons vs. keyboard shortcuts to invoke functionality in a program is not personal information, and a system that collects it is not spyware. It is unquestionably spyware. Any data which leaves my computer without my approval, is spyware. As others have noted, 20 years ago this was not even remotely a question. Any application sending any data at all that wasn't directly part of its functionality would spark outrage. It is sad that somehow spyware has become normalized in some circles. It's never ok.
    - handrous 5y ago
      No software should look over your shoulder on your computer without explicitly asking to do so. This was flatly unacceptable, not all that long ago. I hate that the Overton window on this topic has shifted so far toward spying's side.
dr_dshiv 5y ago
You seem to be suggesting that Audacity records mouse movements and is a keylogger. Do you have any evidence for that? Telemetry is used to understand how software is being used in order to inform ongoing design. Spyware is used to make money from user data. For instance, a website is not spyware--even if it records what links people click. "In software, telemetry is used to gather data on the use and performance of applications and application components, e.g. how often certain features are used, measurements of start-up time and processing time, hardware, application crashes, and general usage statistics and/or user behavior. In some cases, very detailed data is reported like individual window metrics, counts of used features, and individual function timings." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telemetry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telemetry
- handrous 5y ago
  > You seem to be suggesting that Audacity records mouse movements and is a keylogger. Do you have any evidence for that? I would encourage you to re-read my post, if that is how you took it.
  - fouric 5y ago
    Your comment definitely implies that Audacity records mouse movements and is a keylogger. I encourage you to read and adhere to the HN guidelines[1], especially when using vague language to suggest things that are false and then reacting in an incredibly abrasive manner when called out on it. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - handrous 5y ago
      > I encourage you to read and adhere to the HN guidelines[1], especially when using vague language to suggest things that are false and then reacting in an incredibly abrasive manner when called out on it. I was. I had a rude version in mind, believe me. My post is very short and the sentence-diagrams not particularly complex, as far as I can tell. [EDIT] frankly, the "nicer" ways I could think of to say it all felt passive-aggressive as hell no matter how carefully worded, so I stuck with simple and direct. Re-reading the post was apt, respectful advice.
bootaccount 5y ago
Windows 10, which was forced on users machines (often without consent nor approval) meets the threshold for spyware. Could the entire OS be considered spyware? Should Win 11, which is expected to have mandatory MSFT account, be considered something worse than spyware?

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

There's a distinct difference; software with telemetry gathers how you use that particular application, spyware gathers everything you do with your computer. Which is why Windows' telemetry is so controversial. I'm OK with telemetry as long as it's not a communications platform and doesn't forward any work (e.g. code, audio files) I do with it. Telemitry like what buttons or keyboard shortcuts I use, summarized into statistics are fine. I'm not OK with spyware.

btown 5y ago
For creativity software, there's a fine line between "what keyboard shortcuts do I press" and "can the sequence of what I'm typing be captured and recreated, and used to target me or steal my work." Muse Group could have laid down very specific ground rules: telemetry will always be opt-in, you'll be able to audit exactly what is sent, it will never contain low-level keystroke information, it will be anonymized before being saved into our database and be impossible to associate with a cloud user login. That would be the opposite of spyware! But they didn't set these ground rules, and now they have this entire uprising on their hands. I'd like to give them the opportunity to do right and learn from this experience. But they also need a wake-up call that they need to work to earn back the community's trust.
inetknght 5y ago
> There's a distinct difference; software with telemetry gathers how you use that particular application That is spyware. How I use an application should not be anyone's business. It's a hop-skip-and-a-jump to learn private information from how software is used. For example: do you hover your mouse over an icon? Do you let it linger for a unique amount of time? Do you have a particular writing style? Do you have a particular time between each keystroke? When you crash the application do you just re-open it or go do something different? Do you exit the application cleanly or do you power off the computer? Do you use the application without a license? Does your computer clock magically change? Does your computer location move? Do you travel between cities a lot, or even countries? Do you interact with the application in one location but leave it in the background in another location? Do you talk while the application is in use? Do your eyes follow your cursor? Are your eyes looking at the application while you're using it? Do you talk about other products while using the application? ALL of this is private information. Telemetry is just a hop-skip-and-a-jump to data mining.
- fouric 5y ago
  > That is spyware. I strongly disagree. The frequency with which I use my mouse to click buttons vs. keyboard shortcuts to invoke functionality in a program is not personal information, and a system that collects it is not spyware. > For example: do you hover your mouse over an icon? This is not private information. In fact, about half of the things you indicated are clearly not. What you're describing are points of data collection that could be used for fingerprinting, which is an entirely separate issue, and can be defeated relatively easily (by adding noise, not recording some pieces of data, and aggregating others). > Does your computer location move? Do you travel between cities a lot, or even countries? The other half of the things that you describe are actual spying and wouldn't be called telemetry anyway. This is a strawman argument. > It's a hop-skip-and-a-jump to learn private information from how software is used. Tell me how the Audacity developers knowing that I press a sequence of three buttons in a row enables them to determine that I'm single, or how tall I am, or that I like Polish TV dramas, or literally any other personal information? This is an absurd fallacy. Even assuming that the developers somehow managed to sneak in granular enough telemetry (ignoring real keyloggers, because again, we're talking about telemetry) that they could fingerprint you, literally the only thing that allows them to do is identify when a the same person uses Audacity on multiple machines. There's no leakage of actual personal information.
  - jjav 5y ago
    > The frequency with which I use my mouse to click buttons vs. keyboard shortcuts to invoke functionality in a program is not personal information, and a system that collects it is not spyware. It is unquestionably spyware. Any data which leaves my computer without my approval, is spyware. As others have noted, 20 years ago this was not even remotely a question. Any application sending any data at all that wasn't directly part of its functionality would spark outrage. It is sad that somehow spyware has become normalized in some circles. It's never ok.
  - handrous 5y ago
    No software should look over your shoulder on your computer without explicitly asking to do so. This was flatly unacceptable, not all that long ago. I hate that the Overton window on this topic has shifted so far toward spying's side.

dr_dshiv 5y ago

You seem to be suggesting that Audacity records mouse movements and is a keylogger. Do you have any evidence for that? Telemetry is used to understand how software is being used in order to inform ongoing design. Spyware is used to make money from user data. For instance, a website is not spyware--even if it records what links people click. "In software, telemetry is used to gather data on the use and performance of applications and application components, e.g. how often certain features are used, measurements of start-up time and processing time, hardware, application crashes, and general usage statistics and/or user behavior. In some cases, very detailed data is reported like individual window metrics, counts of used features, and individual function timings." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telemetry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telemetry

handrous 5y ago
> You seem to be suggesting that Audacity records mouse movements and is a keylogger. Do you have any evidence for that? I would encourage you to re-read my post, if that is how you took it.
- fouric 5y ago
  Your comment definitely implies that Audacity records mouse movements and is a keylogger. I encourage you to read and adhere to the HN guidelines[1], especially when using vague language to suggest things that are false and then reacting in an incredibly abrasive manner when called out on it. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - handrous 5y ago
    > I encourage you to read and adhere to the HN guidelines[1], especially when using vague language to suggest things that are false and then reacting in an incredibly abrasive manner when called out on it. I was. I had a rude version in mind, believe me. My post is very short and the sentence-diagrams not particularly complex, as far as I can tell. [EDIT] frankly, the "nicer" ways I could think of to say it all felt passive-aggressive as hell no matter how carefully worded, so I stuck with simple and direct. Re-reading the post was apt, respectful advice.

bootaccount 5y ago

Windows 10, which was forced on users machines (often without consent nor approval) meets the threshold for spyware. Could the entire OS be considered spyware? Should Win 11, which is expected to have mandatory MSFT account, be considered something worse than spyware?