5 ms·

A lot of comments are dismissing this because it doesn't provide a credential upon completion. Obvious solution would be decoupling teaching and certification.

by narag 5y ago

A lot of comments are dismissing this because it doesn't provide a credential upon completion. Obvious solution would be decoupling teaching and certification. Actually, having both performed by the same institutions seems like a conflict of interest.

stadium 5y ago
> Obvious solution I don't see a problem here that needs fixing. It seems you are conflating certification with degree. Competition from open learning paths should make paid degree programs adapt to be more competitive. Open, self paced learning isn't for everyone, but it's still awesome to see the open access to this knowledge with little to no economic barriers to entry.
mosselman 5y ago
Another solution would be to have apprenticeship as you had them in olden days: You can become an apprentice at one or preferably a few craftsmen (IT companies) for a given number of years. They'd teach you, pay you and in the end evaluate you. You can do that in parallel to following something like the given materials in OSSU. Germany has apprenticeships as far as I am aware, I don't know enough about it though. edit: Yes! Having certification and teaching done by one organisation _IS_ a huge conflict of interest. Splitting these up without changing the fundamentals (courses and exams/assignments) woudln't do much to fix this I think as you'd either have clumsy evaluations or organisations that just help each other out in order to gain from a slightly different system.
- williamtwild 5y ago
  The US still has appreticeships in skilled labor positions. Electrician and carpentry to nane a few.
- smithrj 5y ago
  This exists actually for software development. I went through the AWS Software Development Engineer Apprenticeship when I made a career change from Military & Government work into Software. Similar programs exist at Google, Lyft, and a few other tech companies. Apprenti, the non-profit that administers the AWS apprenticeship, is doing pretty great work getting people into tech form non-traditional roles.
- stadium 5y ago
  > Having certification and teaching done by one organisation _IS_ a huge conflict of interest A college degree is more like a certificate of completion than a certification of skill or competentcy. It says that the holder passed the minimum requirements for the degree. Post-degree certifications like CPA, medical boards, engineer, bar exam are already administered by independent organizations. I can understand if most of the resentment about these degreeless learning paths comes from people with 6-figure student loans
- bmn__ 5y ago
  > I don't know enough about it https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27662804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27662804
ericmay 5y ago
Education and certification are decoupled. The problem is employers insist on the certifications. So why bother educating yourself with the same material and not just getting the certification at the same time? It’s more profitable that way if your goal is to get a job. If you want to just learn, there are no practical barriers for most people.
- thereddaikon 5y ago
  Formal education and certification are definitely not decoupled. You learn at the same university that gives you the degree. While I agree with the above that having them under the same roof can cause a conflict of interest. But we also know for a fact that having them decoupled can cause serious problems as well. For one you end up with brain dumps that study for the cert and not for the subject matter. We see this for MCSE as much as the SAT. While that can happen with a university as well, it doesn't always and is a useful measure of the institution's quality.
  - galoisgirl 5y ago
    Well, someone has to certify the university. They wouldn't stay certified long if they just gave diplomas to anything with a pulse.
    - randomdata 5y ago
      As a Canadian, the most educated nation in the world, we do pretty much give diplomas to anything with a pulse. It doesn't affect school credibility, it merely pushes people to feel like they need even higher levels of formal education to compete.
      - ericmay 5y ago
        > As a Canadian, the most educated nation in the world > we do pretty much give diplomas to anything with a pulse What's the metric for being the most educated nation? 'Cause ya know if it's "most diplomas per capita" or something and you freely give them out... we might want to rethink that lol. Just something to think about I guess
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
I'm still kind of surprised that software engineers don't have the same certification process as structural engineers, civil engineers, etc. You have to work as a newbie for a couple years, then get a few professional engineers to vouch for you, then pass an exam, then you get your stamp. Sure, you can get certified by Amazon or Google or Microsoft in their own proprietary tech stack, and you can get a degree from an accredited university, but there's no formal body of software engineers who've outlined a process by which you can earn your engineering stamp.

by narag 5y ago

stadium 5y ago

> Obvious solution I don't see a problem here that needs fixing. It seems you are conflating certification with degree. Competition from open learning paths should make paid degree programs adapt to be more competitive. Open, self paced learning isn't for everyone, but it's still awesome to see the open access to this knowledge with little to no economic barriers to entry.

mosselman 5y ago

Another solution would be to have apprenticeship as you had them in olden days: You can become an apprentice at one or preferably a few craftsmen (IT companies) for a given number of years. They'd teach you, pay you and in the end evaluate you. You can do that in parallel to following something like the given materials in OSSU. Germany has apprenticeships as far as I am aware, I don't know enough about it though. edit: Yes! Having certification and teaching done by one organisation _IS_ a huge conflict of interest. Splitting these up without changing the fundamentals (courses and exams/assignments) woudln't do much to fix this I think as you'd either have clumsy evaluations or organisations that just help each other out in order to gain from a slightly different system.

williamtwild 5y ago
The US still has appreticeships in skilled labor positions. Electrician and carpentry to nane a few.
smithrj 5y ago
This exists actually for software development. I went through the AWS Software Development Engineer Apprenticeship when I made a career change from Military & Government work into Software. Similar programs exist at Google, Lyft, and a few other tech companies. Apprenti, the non-profit that administers the AWS apprenticeship, is doing pretty great work getting people into tech form non-traditional roles.
stadium 5y ago
> Having certification and teaching done by one organisation _IS_ a huge conflict of interest A college degree is more like a certificate of completion than a certification of skill or competentcy. It says that the holder passed the minimum requirements for the degree. Post-degree certifications like CPA, medical boards, engineer, bar exam are already administered by independent organizations. I can understand if most of the resentment about these degreeless learning paths comes from people with 6-figure student loans
bmn__ 5y ago
> I don't know enough about it https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27662804 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27662804

ericmay 5y ago

Education and certification are decoupled. The problem is employers insist on the certifications. So why bother educating yourself with the same material and not just getting the certification at the same time? It’s more profitable that way if your goal is to get a job. If you want to just learn, there are no practical barriers for most people.

thereddaikon 5y ago
Formal education and certification are definitely not decoupled. You learn at the same university that gives you the degree. While I agree with the above that having them under the same roof can cause a conflict of interest. But we also know for a fact that having them decoupled can cause serious problems as well. For one you end up with brain dumps that study for the cert and not for the subject matter. We see this for MCSE as much as the SAT. While that can happen with a university as well, it doesn't always and is a useful measure of the institution's quality.
- galoisgirl 5y ago
  Well, someone has to certify the university. They wouldn't stay certified long if they just gave diplomas to anything with a pulse.
  - randomdata 5y ago
    As a Canadian, the most educated nation in the world, we do pretty much give diplomas to anything with a pulse. It doesn't affect school credibility, it merely pushes people to feel like they need even higher levels of formal education to compete.
    - ericmay 5y ago
      > As a Canadian, the most educated nation in the world > we do pretty much give diplomas to anything with a pulse What's the metric for being the most educated nation? 'Cause ya know if it's "most diplomas per capita" or something and you freely give them out... we might want to rethink that lol. Just something to think about I guess

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago

I'm still kind of surprised that software engineers don't have the same certification process as structural engineers, civil engineers, etc. You have to work as a newbie for a couple years, then get a few professional engineers to vouch for you, then pass an exam, then you get your stamp. Sure, you can get certified by Amazon or Google or Microsoft in their own proprietary tech stack, and you can get a degree from an accredited university, but there's no formal body of software engineers who've outlined a process by which you can earn your engineering stamp.