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A lot of comments are dismissing this because it doesn't provide a credential upon completion. But you don't get mad at a hammer for not putting staples in pape

A lot of comments are dismissing this because it doesn't provide a credential upon completion. But you don't get mad at a hammer for not putting staples in paper, nor get mad at a stapler for not putting nails in wood. This is a tool that gives empowers you to educate yourself, not a tool that gives you a credential. As someone with a deep love of learning and knowledge, I am delighted that this exists.

nicoburns 5y ago
I think the reason fo this emphasis is that there are already plenty of resources for self-learning CS. Indeed a lot of the mainstream universities make their course materials available. The bit that is not typically available is the credential, so if we truly want to disrupt the edcuation model then that's the bit that needs to be solved.
- psiconaut 5y ago
  yes, but please consider that pursuing such disruption and getting a self-taught education might be orthogonal problems. event though there are many resources, I appreciate the effort put into curating a selection of those.
- j45 5y ago
  This type of logic would say there no point in having more than a few CS programs worldwide because it already exists. Credentials historically are built in the brand of the institution, a clock which is starting to tick. Would you care for the credential of an institution if it goes out of business in the next 3-5 years?
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    > This type of logic would say there no point in having more than a few CS programs worldwide because it already exists. Well... yes. If they were all open programs then that may well be true. Of course there's value in diversity. But it does seem like a massive waste of resources that we have students paying thousands for tuition they could get much cheaper if it was shared around more widely. > Would you care for the credential of an institution if it goes out of business in the next 3-5 years? That depends entirely on whether my credential was still accepted beyond that point. But in any case, I don't see why a new credentialing organisation should last any less long than an older one.
narag 5y ago
A lot of comments are dismissing this because it doesn't provide a credential upon completion. Obvious solution would be decoupling teaching and certification. Actually, having both performed by the same institutions seems like a conflict of interest.
- stadium 5y ago
  > Obvious solution I don't see a problem here that needs fixing. It seems you are conflating certification with degree. Competition from open learning paths should make paid degree programs adapt to be more competitive. Open, self paced learning isn't for everyone, but it's still awesome to see the open access to this knowledge with little to no economic barriers to entry.
- mosselman 5y ago
  Another solution would be to have apprenticeship as you had them in olden days: You can become an apprentice at one or preferably a few craftsmen (IT companies) for a given number of years. They'd teach you, pay you and in the end evaluate you. You can do that in parallel to following something like the given materials in OSSU. Germany has apprenticeships as far as I am aware, I don't know enough about it though. edit: Yes! Having certification and teaching done by one organisation _IS_ a huge conflict of interest. Splitting these up without changing the fundamentals (courses and exams/assignments) woudln't do much to fix this I think as you'd either have clumsy evaluations or organisations that just help each other out in order to gain from a slightly different system.
  - williamtwild 5y ago
    The US still has appreticeships in skilled labor positions. Electrician and carpentry to nane a few.
  - smithrj 5y ago
    This exists actually for software development. I went through the AWS Software Development Engineer Apprenticeship when I made a career change from Military & Government work into Software. Similar programs exist at Google, Lyft, and a few other tech companies. Apprenti, the non-profit that administers the AWS apprenticeship, is doing pretty great work getting people into tech form non-traditional roles.
ChrisRR 5y ago
Exactly. I think if you're the sort of person who can self teach yourself an entire CS degree in your spare time, that's going to look very good on your CV, accreditation or not. The issue would be getting past the automated CV checkers or recruiters that will throw out any applicants that don't have a certain grade
- austincheney 5y ago
  Nobody looks at grades unless you are a fresh graduate with nothing else to populate on a resume.
  - ganafagol 5y ago
    With less than 5 years of experience it's definitely a factor. If your straight Cs and B- and only have 3 years in some junior role, you're really not prio 1 interview material.
    - austincheney 5y ago
      Then all my interviews (and coworkers) imply a radically different experience. Education is just one or optional lines on a resume that nobody looks at. You don't need a CS degree (or any degree at all) to be a developer.
      - ChrisRR 5y ago
        I think it depends on your speciality . If you're something like a web dev where there's probably 100 other people applying for the same job, then it makes it easier for other CVs to be considered over yours. Something more specialist, they might give more time to consider your application
austincheney 5y ago
A lot of comments are dismissing this because it doesn't provide a credential upon completion. That’s rich considering how quickly (and aggressively) software developers dismiss all other forms of credentials (licensing, certifications, advanced degrees), especially on HN.
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  Well, I'm pretty sure the people dismissing this for lack of certification are the same people (like myself) who also dismiss the dismissal of all other forms of credentials (licensing, certification, advanced degrees).
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  HN isn't one person. There are a variety of people here with a variety of viewpoints. To expect consistency in what people say here is to expect disappointment, because you aren't going to get it. There are a lot of software engineers who don't have any kind of certification, including a degree. Many of us at least know such people, even if we aren't that person ourselves. We're kind of skeptical of anything that says "that person isn't qualified to do this work". Many other software engineers (I say "other", but it's not a completely disjoint set) see too many people show up at interviews (or even on the job) who can't program. Like, can't program at all. They'd like some way to weed them out. And then some other people look at this program from a purely selfish point of view, and say "Learning some stuff might help my career, but I can do that without this program. But learning some stuff with a certification would help my career more..."
j45 5y ago
Self directed learning is an invaluable skill for anyone, credential or not.
- ganafagol 5y ago
  While that's true, most of the valuable employees have 1 top skill: communication. That's neither trained nor witnessed by having gone through 2 years of I-did-this-alone-at-home.
  - j45 5y ago
    Learning how to learn is more of a master skill, under which learning tech or communication falls. Communication is critical but can lead to non-tech people talking about tech, too. Need both. Theres nothing about self-directed learning that says one couldn’t do it on the job, or doing other things. Work integrated learning one example. Conversely, suffering group work in post secondary doesn’t always guarantee excellent communication skills. It’s another way (for the few) to learn to work with people who might not be able to work with each other. There is lots of self directed learning needed in post secondary too, only they call it learning how to think. This program in question appears to be part time.. which leaves time to not be alone at home and instead be scrolling the world through a little window.
  - foolinaround 5y ago
    Does the 4 year education in college improve that skill better? Most likely, the self-taught person is also doing some other job, etc as well. So, he is managing a tougher-than-normal schedule, and communication/planning comes into play for sure.
    - ganafagol 5y ago
      Not sure about the loner generally having an edge over college here. I had to communicate, collaborate and team work plenty back in the college days.
LightMachine 5y ago
Speaking of the subject, if someone DOES want a credential and already knows a lot of CS, are there good online courses that provide sped up process? I have been programming since 20 years ago, am a lead developer at a large company, but have no degree. Sadly some companies like Google do require it to even consider submissions, so I wonder if I should enroll an online course just for the paper.
- manquer 5y ago
  Some companies/teams will not recognize online courses, some will only consider from "good" universities, so worth checking before you enroll. However in my experience such organizations are really a waste of time if they insist on a degree for people with a lot of experience, every internal promotion will have similar and sometimes unreachable barriers.
- hpoe 5y ago
  Check out Western Governors University. It is an accredited online university formed back in the 90's and I believe is non profit as well so it isn't like the University of Phoenix or those other scam schools. They have a competency based model where if you can demonstrate competency by passing the test and/or completing the project you can be done with the class, whether that takes you 3 days or 3 months. You also play a flat rate for the semester and complete as many classes as you want at a time. I did it I loved it, I'd been in the field and was able to breeze through some of my courses while the ones I wasn't familiar with helped me. They also have a lot of classes that the test is an industry cert, so it's a cheap way to get some certs under your belt as well.
  - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    > You also play a flat rate for the semester and complete as many classes as you want at a time. Oooh, I did not know that. So you could figure out what classes you want, study for them on your own, then pay for one semester and pass all the tests? If you've got the discipline to study with no feedback for a year or two, that could be a really inexpensive way to get a degree...

nicoburns 5y ago

I think the reason fo this emphasis is that there are already plenty of resources for self-learning CS. Indeed a lot of the mainstream universities make their course materials available. The bit that is not typically available is the credential, so if we truly want to disrupt the edcuation model then that's the bit that needs to be solved.

psiconaut 5y ago
yes, but please consider that pursuing such disruption and getting a self-taught education might be orthogonal problems. event though there are many resources, I appreciate the effort put into curating a selection of those.
j45 5y ago
This type of logic would say there no point in having more than a few CS programs worldwide because it already exists. Credentials historically are built in the brand of the institution, a clock which is starting to tick. Would you care for the credential of an institution if it goes out of business in the next 3-5 years?
- nicoburns 5y ago
  > This type of logic would say there no point in having more than a few CS programs worldwide because it already exists. Well... yes. If they were all open programs then that may well be true. Of course there's value in diversity. But it does seem like a massive waste of resources that we have students paying thousands for tuition they could get much cheaper if it was shared around more widely. > Would you care for the credential of an institution if it goes out of business in the next 3-5 years? That depends entirely on whether my credential was still accepted beyond that point. But in any case, I don't see why a new credentialing organisation should last any less long than an older one.

narag 5y ago

A lot of comments are dismissing this because it doesn't provide a credential upon completion. Obvious solution would be decoupling teaching and certification. Actually, having both performed by the same institutions seems like a conflict of interest.

stadium 5y ago
> Obvious solution I don't see a problem here that needs fixing. It seems you are conflating certification with degree. Competition from open learning paths should make paid degree programs adapt to be more competitive. Open, self paced learning isn't for everyone, but it's still awesome to see the open access to this knowledge with little to no economic barriers to entry.
mosselman 5y ago
Another solution would be to have apprenticeship as you had them in olden days: You can become an apprentice at one or preferably a few craftsmen (IT companies) for a given number of years. They'd teach you, pay you and in the end evaluate you. You can do that in parallel to following something like the given materials in OSSU. Germany has apprenticeships as far as I am aware, I don't know enough about it though. edit: Yes! Having certification and teaching done by one organisation _IS_ a huge conflict of interest. Splitting these up without changing the fundamentals (courses and exams/assignments) woudln't do much to fix this I think as you'd either have clumsy evaluations or organisations that just help each other out in order to gain from a slightly different system.
- williamtwild 5y ago
  The US still has appreticeships in skilled labor positions. Electrician and carpentry to nane a few.
- smithrj 5y ago
  This exists actually for software development. I went through the AWS Software Development Engineer Apprenticeship when I made a career change from Military & Government work into Software. Similar programs exist at Google, Lyft, and a few other tech companies. Apprenti, the non-profit that administers the AWS apprenticeship, is doing pretty great work getting people into tech form non-traditional roles.

ChrisRR 5y ago

Exactly. I think if you're the sort of person who can self teach yourself an entire CS degree in your spare time, that's going to look very good on your CV, accreditation or not. The issue would be getting past the automated CV checkers or recruiters that will throw out any applicants that don't have a certain grade

austincheney 5y ago
Nobody looks at grades unless you are a fresh graduate with nothing else to populate on a resume.
- ganafagol 5y ago
  With less than 5 years of experience it's definitely a factor. If your straight Cs and B- and only have 3 years in some junior role, you're really not prio 1 interview material.
  - austincheney 5y ago
    Then all my interviews (and coworkers) imply a radically different experience. Education is just one or optional lines on a resume that nobody looks at. You don't need a CS degree (or any degree at all) to be a developer.
    - ChrisRR 5y ago
      I think it depends on your speciality . If you're something like a web dev where there's probably 100 other people applying for the same job, then it makes it easier for other CVs to be considered over yours. Something more specialist, they might give more time to consider your application

austincheney 5y ago

A lot of comments are dismissing this because it doesn't provide a credential upon completion. That’s rich considering how quickly (and aggressively) software developers dismiss all other forms of credentials (licensing, certifications, advanced degrees), especially on HN.

commandlinefan 5y ago
Well, I'm pretty sure the people dismissing this for lack of certification are the same people (like myself) who also dismiss the dismissal of all other forms of credentials (licensing, certification, advanced degrees).
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
HN isn't one person. There are a variety of people here with a variety of viewpoints. To expect consistency in what people say here is to expect disappointment, because you aren't going to get it. There are a lot of software engineers who don't have any kind of certification, including a degree. Many of us at least know such people, even if we aren't that person ourselves. We're kind of skeptical of anything that says "that person isn't qualified to do this work". Many other software engineers (I say "other", but it's not a completely disjoint set) see too many people show up at interviews (or even on the job) who can't program. Like, can't program at all. They'd like some way to weed them out. And then some other people look at this program from a purely selfish point of view, and say "Learning some stuff might help my career, but I can do that without this program. But learning some stuff with a certification would help my career more..."

j45 5y ago

Self directed learning is an invaluable skill for anyone, credential or not.

ganafagol 5y ago
While that's true, most of the valuable employees have 1 top skill: communication. That's neither trained nor witnessed by having gone through 2 years of I-did-this-alone-at-home.
- j45 5y ago
  Learning how to learn is more of a master skill, under which learning tech or communication falls. Communication is critical but can lead to non-tech people talking about tech, too. Need both. Theres nothing about self-directed learning that says one couldn’t do it on the job, or doing other things. Work integrated learning one example. Conversely, suffering group work in post secondary doesn’t always guarantee excellent communication skills. It’s another way (for the few) to learn to work with people who might not be able to work with each other. There is lots of self directed learning needed in post secondary too, only they call it learning how to think. This program in question appears to be part time.. which leaves time to not be alone at home and instead be scrolling the world through a little window.
- foolinaround 5y ago
  Does the 4 year education in college improve that skill better? Most likely, the self-taught person is also doing some other job, etc as well. So, he is managing a tougher-than-normal schedule, and communication/planning comes into play for sure.
  - ganafagol 5y ago
    Not sure about the loner generally having an edge over college here. I had to communicate, collaborate and team work plenty back in the college days.

LightMachine 5y ago

Speaking of the subject, if someone DOES want a credential and already knows a lot of CS, are there good online courses that provide sped up process? I have been programming since 20 years ago, am a lead developer at a large company, but have no degree. Sadly some companies like Google do require it to even consider submissions, so I wonder if I should enroll an online course just for the paper.

manquer 5y ago
Some companies/teams will not recognize online courses, some will only consider from "good" universities, so worth checking before you enroll. However in my experience such organizations are really a waste of time if they insist on a degree for people with a lot of experience, every internal promotion will have similar and sometimes unreachable barriers.
hpoe 5y ago
Check out Western Governors University. It is an accredited online university formed back in the 90's and I believe is non profit as well so it isn't like the University of Phoenix or those other scam schools. They have a competency based model where if you can demonstrate competency by passing the test and/or completing the project you can be done with the class, whether that takes you 3 days or 3 months. You also play a flat rate for the semester and complete as many classes as you want at a time. I did it I loved it, I'd been in the field and was able to breeze through some of my courses while the ones I wasn't familiar with helped me. They also have a lot of classes that the test is an industry cert, so it's a cheap way to get some certs under your belt as well.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  > You also play a flat rate for the semester and complete as many classes as you want at a time. Oooh, I did not know that. So you could figure out what classes you want, study for them on your own, then pay for one semester and pass all the tests? If you've got the discipline to study with no feedback for a year or two, that could be a really inexpensive way to get a degree...