4 ms·

It's kinda obvious that the 'lab leak theory' was created just to attack China.

by aritmo 5y ago

redis_mlc 5y ago
No, COVID-19 came from Wuhan, regardless of theory. The CCP banned domestic air travel from Wuhan to other cities in China early in the pandemic, so the CCP knew at the highest levels where it came from. The various crematoria in Wuhan worked around the clock for months.
corty 5y ago
Of course the theory is used that way, it fits nicely into various political arguments. But that doesn't influence the veracity of the lab leak theory either way. Looking at the article, it also uses weak arguments to support its thesis: "She first takes aim at the popular version of the lab leak theory that posits that Covid was taken from nature and escaped in its wild form. The problem with that scenario, she told me, is that a swab from a bat contains very little infectious virus. Each bat weighs less than half an ounce, and each sample is basically a Q-tip swiped briefly over a bat’s mouth or anus. These samples are stored in vials in the freezer; they’re not likely to spill or leak, the way disaster movies have primed us to suppose." The real-world counter-argument to this is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg_virus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg_virus Lab leaks do happen, and all researchers in those labs do have an interest to play down the danger and cover things up to continue working.
- aliasEli 5y ago
  There is some evidence that they had live bats in the laboratory. This would make sense, bats are quite different from other mammals, and it seems very likely that some bat viruses can not be cultivated in standard cell cultures.
- scotty79 5y ago
  Marburg is a different virus. Coronaviruses infection very much depends on the size of viral load. It's not like ebola where single micro droplet is enough.
- aliasEli 5y ago
  > a swab from a bat contains very little infectious virus We know that they were doing gain of function research, but that only works with live viruses. So they must have some method to cultivate the virus. When they can do that small size of the initial sample is no longer relevant.
shroom 5y ago
Why is that? I find it equally obvious that China released the virus to attack the world. Exhibit A: China only have 92.000 cases total and no new cases in like a year. Point is I have a hard time believing what’s true or false when the ”fat cats dance”. Atleast it’s no secret that China have silenced doctors and people working in close proximity of the virus in the early days of discovering it.
- emilgouliev 5y ago
  You might have a point if China was the only country that was able to keep their case numbers low, but dozens of countries did even better than China. Perhaps South Korea or New Zealand is to blame instead.
  - makomk 5y ago
    South Korea seems like a bad example, because they had twice as many Covid cases as China with less than a twentieth the population. Actually, it looks like even New Zealand has reported substantially more Covid cases per capita than China, and they're literally an island a thousand miles away from anywhere else. China's low case numbers really are remarkable.
    - aliasEli 5y ago
      South Korea did well at the early phases of the epidemic[0]. The problem now is that they don't have enough vaccines[1]. China used some draconian measures to achieve their results. [0] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/south-korea/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/south-kore... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_South_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_South_...
HoytRaymond 5y ago
I would argue the exact opposite: the lab leak theory is intentionally downplayed to protect China/relations with China. There are a lot of coincidences that make a lab leak a real possibility. It is possible those are all coincidences and the virus is of natural origin, but it is also possible that those are not coincidences and the virus originates from a lab leak. Most likely we will never know since virus origin investigations are difficult to begin with, and China has no motivation to fairly cooperate in this investigation. It also is not actually important, since it is extremely unlikely the virus was intentionally released. For political reasons it is better to go with the natural origin story and avoid stirring things up - there is no gain to be had from pressing the issue.
- goldenkey 5y ago
  No gain in truth, let's just lie. Yeah, I think my government says the same things about UFOs. It's working out really well, for the past 80 years. We should have the truth so we can be abreast of what is possible in this world. For example, if actual engineers knew that Mach 10 UFOs existed, they'd probably be working on next-generation propulsion systems. And as for the lab leak, those in biological research would be a little bit more careful. How do you avoid mistakes if you are unaware one ever occurred? A lab leak that killed millions and changed years of our lives is not a white lie! It's egregious that you are willing to sacrifice truth for a diplomatic pin cushion.
  - s5300 5y ago
    >as for the lab leak, those in biological research would be a little bit more careful. You say this as if you know that they're purposefully not being careful or something.
    - HPsquared 5y ago
      There are different levels of "careful". Look at the early days of nuclear research, chemicals or aviation industries compared to present-day regulations in those fields.
simonh 5y ago
It originated because we know for a fact that lab leaks do happen. SARS leaked from a lab in Beijing a few years ago and there have been leaks in Russia, the USA, the UK and many other countries. It's just a fact that these things can happen. That by itself doesn't make this particular lab leak theory particularly likely or plausible, but it definitely make it possible. I have no time whatsoever for the nutters who say the lab leak is definitely correct or has been proven. Likewise I have no time for people who say the lab leak was not possible and should not be considered. In both cases there's a big chunk of motivated reasoning, and quite possibly wilful ignorance going on IMHO.
paulddraper 5y ago
Or....hear me out.... It was created because people thought it was weird that a novel bat coronavirus originated blocks away from a research facility specializing in novel bat coronaviruses.

It's kinda obvious that the 'lab leak theory' was created just to attack China.

by aritmo 5y ago

It's kinda obvious that the 'lab leak theory' was created just to attack China.

No, COVID-19 came from Wuhan, regardless of theory. The CCP banned domestic air travel from Wuhan to other cities in China early in the pandemic, so the CCP knew at the highest levels where it came from. The various crematoria in Wuhan worked around the clock for months.

corty 5y ago

Of course the theory is used that way, it fits nicely into various political arguments. But that doesn't influence the veracity of the lab leak theory either way. Looking at the article, it also uses weak arguments to support its thesis: "She first takes aim at the popular version of the lab leak theory that posits that Covid was taken from nature and escaped in its wild form. The problem with that scenario, she told me, is that a swab from a bat contains very little infectious virus. Each bat weighs less than half an ounce, and each sample is basically a Q-tip swiped briefly over a bat’s mouth or anus. These samples are stored in vials in the freezer; they’re not likely to spill or leak, the way disaster movies have primed us to suppose." The real-world counter-argument to this is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg_virus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marburg_virus Lab leaks do happen, and all researchers in those labs do have an interest to play down the danger and cover things up to continue working.

aliasEli 5y ago
There is some evidence that they had live bats in the laboratory. This would make sense, bats are quite different from other mammals, and it seems very likely that some bat viruses can not be cultivated in standard cell cultures.
scotty79 5y ago
Marburg is a different virus. Coronaviruses infection very much depends on the size of viral load. It's not like ebola where single micro droplet is enough.
aliasEli 5y ago
> a swab from a bat contains very little infectious virus We know that they were doing gain of function research, but that only works with live viruses. So they must have some method to cultivate the virus. When they can do that small size of the initial sample is no longer relevant.

shroom 5y ago

Why is that? I find it equally obvious that China released the virus to attack the world. Exhibit A: China only have 92.000 cases total and no new cases in like a year. Point is I have a hard time believing what’s true or false when the ”fat cats dance”. Atleast it’s no secret that China have silenced doctors and people working in close proximity of the virus in the early days of discovering it.

emilgouliev 5y ago
You might have a point if China was the only country that was able to keep their case numbers low, but dozens of countries did even better than China. Perhaps South Korea or New Zealand is to blame instead.
- makomk 5y ago
  South Korea seems like a bad example, because they had twice as many Covid cases as China with less than a twentieth the population. Actually, it looks like even New Zealand has reported substantially more Covid cases per capita than China, and they're literally an island a thousand miles away from anywhere else. China's low case numbers really are remarkable.
  - aliasEli 5y ago
    South Korea did well at the early phases of the epidemic[0]. The problem now is that they don't have enough vaccines[1]. China used some draconian measures to achieve their results. [0] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/south-korea/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/south-kore... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_South_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_South_...

HoytRaymond 5y ago

I would argue the exact opposite: the lab leak theory is intentionally downplayed to protect China/relations with China. There are a lot of coincidences that make a lab leak a real possibility. It is possible those are all coincidences and the virus is of natural origin, but it is also possible that those are not coincidences and the virus originates from a lab leak. Most likely we will never know since virus origin investigations are difficult to begin with, and China has no motivation to fairly cooperate in this investigation. It also is not actually important, since it is extremely unlikely the virus was intentionally released. For political reasons it is better to go with the natural origin story and avoid stirring things up - there is no gain to be had from pressing the issue.

goldenkey 5y ago
No gain in truth, let's just lie. Yeah, I think my government says the same things about UFOs. It's working out really well, for the past 80 years. We should have the truth so we can be abreast of what is possible in this world. For example, if actual engineers knew that Mach 10 UFOs existed, they'd probably be working on next-generation propulsion systems. And as for the lab leak, those in biological research would be a little bit more careful. How do you avoid mistakes if you are unaware one ever occurred? A lab leak that killed millions and changed years of our lives is not a white lie! It's egregious that you are willing to sacrifice truth for a diplomatic pin cushion.
- s5300 5y ago
  >as for the lab leak, those in biological research would be a little bit more careful. You say this as if you know that they're purposefully not being careful or something.
  - HPsquared 5y ago
    There are different levels of "careful". Look at the early days of nuclear research, chemicals or aviation industries compared to present-day regulations in those fields.

simonh 5y ago

It originated because we know for a fact that lab leaks do happen. SARS leaked from a lab in Beijing a few years ago and there have been leaks in Russia, the USA, the UK and many other countries. It's just a fact that these things can happen. That by itself doesn't make this particular lab leak theory particularly likely or plausible, but it definitely make it possible. I have no time whatsoever for the nutters who say the lab leak is definitely correct or has been proven. Likewise I have no time for people who say the lab leak was not possible and should not be considered. In both cases there's a big chunk of motivated reasoning, and quite possibly wilful ignorance going on IMHO.

paulddraper 5y ago

Or....hear me out.... It was created because people thought it was weird that a novel bat coronavirus originated blocks away from a research facility specializing in novel bat coronaviruses.