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>GPL advocates say it's so that your code isn't exploited by corporations. I am not sure which GPL advocates you have spoken to, but I like the GPL, because it

>GPL advocates say it's so that your code isn't exploited by corporations. I am not sure which GPL advocates you have spoken to, but I like the GPL, because it puts me center as a user. I can use and copy a programm as I see fit. And if I come to a point where I think something has gone wrong with it or something is missing, then I can modify it myself, or pay someone to help me do that, and I can distribute these modifications. This ensures my freedom as a user. Maybe the software got abandoned, maybe someone added telemetry, maybe xyz, it's helpful in many cases. More restrictive licenses, let's say the MIT one, do not prevent me from making making my contributions closed source. This ensures the freedom of the developer to prevent users gaining access to the code. Thus it restricts the rights of the user, that they would have under the GPL. If a commercial project feels it's within their right to prevent me from accessing the code that is running on my machine, that is their decision, but that is at odds with the freedoms that are granted by the GPL. Given all that, I would like to disagree with your conclusion > But I'd say that choosing GPL means it's more important to you that your code "is not exploited by corporations" than that it can be used for good by people with commercial interests. Chosing the GPL means it's more important to me that my users, not my code, is not exploited "by corporations". The GPL then does not prevent "good people with commercial interests" from using my code - but given that "good" is a relative term: from my point of view preventing someone from having meaningfull access to the code that is running on their machine is not good - it is bad.

yeahforsureman 5y ago
What if that "bad" is insignificant compared to the good produced by that code as part of proprietary software? That scenario is impossible with GPL. Effectively, you're just restricting the business models of your users. It has worked for some projects (Linux above all) but if you're talking about a small project that likely stays small, I don't know if it usually makes much sense. Also, your convoluted explanation of why permissive licenses should be called "restrictive" is hilarious.
- yosamino 5y ago
  I agree with your point on the usage of the word "bad", this is what the term "relative" that I used implied, as well as the explaination of which specific aspect I think it applies to. I am not sure why you are trying to make fun of me: Permissive licenses ensure that the first generation of users/developers benefit from the code in question being free, and then allow restrictions. Licenses along the lines of the GPL make sure software stays free even after generations of copies. The restriction in the GPL that sets it apart from, let's say, the BSD license, is that it doesn't allow further restrictions. So the tree of descendants of an originally "permissively" licensed code contains potentially more restrictions, that the tree of descendants of originally GPL licensed code. Quite possible that this makes the GPL the less successfull of the bunch. That shares a similarity to the paradox of tolerance: To ensure a society stays tolerant, it has to be intolerant against it's intolerant subgroups. You can argue that a society should be so free that is does not do this, but that just diminishes tolerance in the long run, so of the two paradigms, paradoxically, the more tolerant society is the one with a specific intolerant rule against intolerant minorities. This is, as you rightly noted, not how modern business models function.
  - yeahforsureman 5y ago
    No need to re-explain, I understood you well enough. Not trying to make fun of you either, it's just funny you end up calling restrictive something which is widely known as "permissive". Of course, it's called permissive because it contains maximal rights with little requirements for someone you would probably call the "first" user. > So the tree of descendants of an originally "permissively" licensed code contains potentially more restrictions, that the tree of descendants of originally GPL licensed code. I think the number of users should count as well. A proprietary application distributed to millions results, in a way, in more "freedom" of use (albeit of a thinner scope) compared to a GPL'd application rarely used or distributed. > This is, as you rightly noted, not how modern business models function. Some do, some don't. See e.g. Carlo Daffara on open source business models.
- insulanus 5y ago
  > Effectively, you're just restricting the business models of your users. It has worked for some projects (Linux above all) I think you are understating how crucial a license like the GPL was in Linux getting to where we are today. It was essential.
  - yeahforsureman 5y ago
    I agree and thought that was well-conveyed, but guess not.

yeahforsureman 5y ago

What if that "bad" is insignificant compared to the good produced by that code as part of proprietary software? That scenario is impossible with GPL. Effectively, you're just restricting the business models of your users. It has worked for some projects (Linux above all) but if you're talking about a small project that likely stays small, I don't know if it usually makes much sense. Also, your convoluted explanation of why permissive licenses should be called "restrictive" is hilarious.

yosamino 5y ago
I agree with your point on the usage of the word "bad", this is what the term "relative" that I used implied, as well as the explaination of which specific aspect I think it applies to. I am not sure why you are trying to make fun of me: Permissive licenses ensure that the first generation of users/developers benefit from the code in question being free, and then allow restrictions. Licenses along the lines of the GPL make sure software stays free even after generations of copies. The restriction in the GPL that sets it apart from, let's say, the BSD license, is that it doesn't allow further restrictions. So the tree of descendants of an originally "permissively" licensed code contains potentially more restrictions, that the tree of descendants of originally GPL licensed code. Quite possible that this makes the GPL the less successfull of the bunch. That shares a similarity to the paradox of tolerance: To ensure a society stays tolerant, it has to be intolerant against it's intolerant subgroups. You can argue that a society should be so free that is does not do this, but that just diminishes tolerance in the long run, so of the two paradigms, paradoxically, the more tolerant society is the one with a specific intolerant rule against intolerant minorities. This is, as you rightly noted, not how modern business models function.
- yeahforsureman 5y ago
  No need to re-explain, I understood you well enough. Not trying to make fun of you either, it's just funny you end up calling restrictive something which is widely known as "permissive". Of course, it's called permissive because it contains maximal rights with little requirements for someone you would probably call the "first" user. > So the tree of descendants of an originally "permissively" licensed code contains potentially more restrictions, that the tree of descendants of originally GPL licensed code. I think the number of users should count as well. A proprietary application distributed to millions results, in a way, in more "freedom" of use (albeit of a thinner scope) compared to a GPL'd application rarely used or distributed. > This is, as you rightly noted, not how modern business models function. Some do, some don't. See e.g. Carlo Daffara on open source business models.
insulanus 5y ago
> Effectively, you're just restricting the business models of your users. It has worked for some projects (Linux above all) I think you are understating how crucial a license like the GPL was in Linux getting to where we are today. It was essential.
- yeahforsureman 5y ago
  I agree and thought that was well-conveyed, but guess not.